firefighterplt

When I was in college, I worked as a
motorcycle dealer technician for beer money. It was a good gig, but the owner was a crook, and he doubled as the service manager. He made an absolute killing for a long time, but eventually word got around that he was a scammer. People would bring bikes in for valve adjustments...as long as the bike came in sounding okay, it would never make it onto a lift. Cha Ching. Carb rebuild? Quick jet blast-out, no rubber replaced. He sold these tune-up packages that were many hundreds of dollars that often consisted of nothing more than an oil change (with crap bulk oil), chain adjustment, clutch cable adjustment, and a greasing of the pivot points on the bike. He made it sound like WAY more, of course.

He made a ton of money, I will say...until Internet reviews became a thing. Dude was skinned alive on the internet, and now he’s struggling to keep the place afloat. Reputation,
both personal and professional, was trashed.

And then I found $20 and two chicks made out.

Allegheny

Part of the problem is how the US DOL classifies A&P mechanics.


https://www.aviationpros.com/home/ar...n-of-mechanics

There is also a long-standing impression among aviation mechanics that their occupation is classified as "semi-skilled" or "unskilled" by the DoL. Unfortunately, this is effectively true. Labor maintains that it bases its groupings in part on its industry sector or function, not on skill level. In fact, you will not find a "skilled" or "unskilled" classification anywhere in the code. By classifying FAA certificated mechanics together with non-certificated service technicians, DoL has effectively classified everyone at the lower skilled, non-certificated level.

howdyclub

The DOL can see that there is zero education or training requirements for most aircraft maintenance. Obtaining an A&P is a simple formality for the few instances that its required..

4020Driver

[QUOTE=howdyclub;3171507]The DOL can see that there is zero education or training requirements for most aircraft maintenance. Obtaining an A&P is a simple formality for the few instances that its required..[/QUOTE

Huh? Even in the Part 145 (repair station) world an individual has to show training in each task that is performed if that individual doesn’t have an Mechanic certificate. Eventually an uncert could work into a Repaiman certificate after 24 months of OJT. Everything that leaves a repair station is returned to service by someone that has a Mechanic or Repairman certificate.

At a 121 airline, its similar to the situation above. An uncert could, in theory be hired, but that would require them to be signed off on every single task that they would be allowed to perform.

Any maintenance on a part 135 aircraft has to be performed by a mechanic or a repairman, unless those items are specifically mentioned in their maintenance program.

Part 91 is the loosest, of course, but, the inspections, minor repairs and minor alterations still have to be returned to service by an A and P. Major alterations and Annual inspection require a further certificate, an Inspection Authorization (or be returned to service by a Part 145 repair station).

It seems to me there are a lot of instances where and A and P or repairman certificate are required.

I know most people think of MRO’s that perform maintenance on 121 aircraft south of the border and think that means there aren’t any requirements for individuals to perform maintenance at all. I’m here to tell you that simply would not pass here in the US. Of course, foreign repair stations get considerably less scrutiny than US-based repair stations. The FAA cites “funding” but I’m sure they get political pressure not to look too hard at those foreign-based repair stations.

Most mechanics have quite a bit of money (and time!) invested in their education and tools. I’m a probably considered an outlier since I have a four year degree but, I probably had 20-30K invested in my degree (that was 20 years ago) and about 70k in tools (probably more- I just don’t want to think about it!) over the years. Obviously an individual can get into it for considerably less than the above if they go to a community college and are only working on one type of aircraft or have a specialty. In my case, I’m an EMS helicopter mechanic but I also work on business jets, Ag aircraft, and piston GA, avionics, street metal, etc, so, there’s a wide variety of tools that I need to work on that many aircraft and specialties. Luckily, I do own and fly an airplane, and believe it or not have quite a bit of flight time, too.

I just wanted to show the forum that many of the mechanics in the industry are extremely skilled at their jobs and some might even have more time and money invested than a lot of people might think. Honesty, I’m not sure where the next generation of mechanics is going to come from. Most younger people aren’t interested in the trade. I think the average age of an aircraft mechanic is the late 50’s now. I’m again an oddity, I’m an older Millennial. The lack of pay (I’ve never broke 90K, even as a Chief Inspector/QA Manager) is the main contributing factor along with a lack of respect within the industry (I’ve been called a “dumb grease monkey” to my face on more than one occasion) and extreme liability (FAA and civil). I, unfortunately, can’t bring myself to talk anyone into it either.

Most guys I know, including myself, are looking to get out of the maintenance world, unfortunately. It’s kinda sad, honestly. It’s just something to think about next time you see someone working on an airplane.

howdyclub

I was referring to the way the industry really works. Sure, a person can go to school, get an advanced degree, and spend a fortune on tools to be a mechanic. OR he can get some papers signed and take a simple test. You can't place much of a barrier in front of something that is always dirty and often low paying. This is why all the loopholes exist to certify people who cant go to school.

Transparent Mx

First of all, your claim of Aircraft maintenance technician (AMT) Education and IQ is a fallacy. Your use of hasty generalization like majority in this industry is one of the driving force affecting the wage disparity between AMTs and pilots. To obtain an A&P license you must have a high school diploma in this 21st century. unlike pilot that can obtain a private license while still in high school or at the age of 12. I graduated A&P school in 2011 and obtain my A&P in 2012. From entry level to my current job as an AMT working for one of the major airline here in the united states, I have worked with AMT across different department in the industry that have BSc and Associate degree yet they make less then a pilot. It does not make a difference when it come to the hourly rate/salary between AMT and pilot despite an AMT level of education. If we really want to get technical, reflecting on the history of flight, pilot didn't require formal education and was more of a dare devil recreation activity until the birth of the US airmail. To keep this discussion brief, I will say the least. While it is true pilot is vital to airline so is Aircraft maintenance technician. Reading previous post, some stated that they have come across A&P who didn't had clue about about what they were doing, so have I. I have seen pilot who didn't know what some buttons in the flight deck were nor could they start the APU because they didn't turn the battery on. However AMT endured more tedious task and sacrifice a lot while pilot are comfortable and put on a pedestal. Pilot lounge is flawless with all the condiments while AMT shop is in the back room. We signed airworthiness release before and after every flight ensuring the aircraft is safe, yet in the event of a failure despite it's a pilot error, it is blame on the AMT first, secondly we work in complex and hazardous environment while pilot are cozy in the lounge and flight deck. majority of routine maintenance is done overnight, Therefore during the first half of our career (i.e. 1-10years) we are stuck on the overnight shift and weekends missing out on family functions, sleep deprivation and being expose to high noise level, fall, engine ingestion, chemicals from engine oil fumes, jet fuel to graphite, extreme cold and heat wave etc. like pilots, AMTs is require to get train on every new fleet. The flight simulator you guys trained on we fix that. the autopilot that fly 90% of the flight we ensured it is operational and safe. taking this into consideration I truly believe an AMT require higher wage than pilot or the least the same wage as pilot due to their daily complex and hazardous work conditions. your fallacy of AMT education/IQ is erroneous.

TransWorld

Please put it in the form of paragraphs. That way I can read it without my eyes glazing over.

rickair7777

No, it's market demand. Barriers to entry are much lower for for AMT.... you can do all the training and get a career job in most major cities without ever leaving home. Pilots will typically need to move all over the map (all over the globe in some pretty crappy spots for mil pilots) and pony up either $100k+ or ten years mil obligation. That's on top of college.

PPL min age is 17. But that doesn't allow you to work or earn money as a pilot.

Min age for an ATP is 21, or 23 if you actually are going to be the PIC.

Top tier airline employers require a degree for practical purposes (99%). I'd swag that about half of top-tier pilots have post-grad degrees (almost all mil have one).

Sure. But market forces... it's just easier to hire AMT's because it's easier to qualify for an AMT job at Delta than a pilot job at Delta.

Nobody is going to decide to pay AMT's more just to be "fair"... they will pay more when AMTs stop showing up for work. That's how it works with pilots too, regional airline pilots *used* to make less than the AMTs which worked on their planes. Then they ran out of pilots.


So earn $100K and sign up for flight training. The reality is that the majority of jobs available in the world do not offer as good a QOL as airline pilots, and that includes most white-collar jobs.

Your fallacy is not recognizing that pilots (especially Captains) often represent the company to the customers. They want people who are articulate, presentable, and have social skills. Your writing skills are not up to that standard, and I'm guessing your public speaking skills aren't either.

That's just how it is, no amount of wishing is going to change it. If you want pilot pay and benefits, become a pilot... plenty of AMTs have done it.

Plenty more prefer working on airplanes, and that's OK too. I'm a highly educated senior military officer and legacy pilot. Working on cars is one of my main hobbies, and I even watch youtube videos of guys working on cars. I could have enjoyed a career doing that, but I sought out broader horizons and better pay.

Duffman

You don't get paid based on how hard your job is. You get paid based on how many people are qualified to do your job, vs how many job openings exist. If AMTs made as much as legacy pilots, I know a lot of engineers who would've happily gotten their certs and likely gotten hired way before you. But you don't have to be an engineer to be an AMT, so your pay is set at a rate that entices a steady flow of new AMTs to replace attrition and results in safe flight ops. If you're envious of the pilot pay and lifestyle, become a pilot. Nobody is stopping you, and since you already have a job, you're financially better off than most people beginning the pilot journey.

Dpilot

At the end of the day, pilots lives are on the line when things go wrong maintenance or otherwise. The mechanic on the other hand is on the ground safely away from harm.