Bye Bye Boeing in Seattle!
 

Today in Seattle, Idiotic machinists voted against a contract that would ensure job security for at least 20 years, but also a contract that would land the 777X to be mainly manufactured out of the Seattle area. Instead they pleaded for their pension plan back and "better" benefits but fail to realize Boeing is fully willing to outsource all of there operations and replace their workforce with those desperate to work elsewhere.

So is this an end for Boeing in Seattle?

Boeing machinists reject labor contract proposal | Fox News

Boeing quality will continue to decrease... How's that 787 coming? Still under budget?

1970-72 reductions in force were tough on the economy up here, this vote will bring a similar impact, if the company closes facilities. The orders will dictate where (if) the company can move the production and still meet deadlines.

I hope they lose all their tax breaks/incentives from the State and Uncle Sam. Boeing products have been taking a "hit" lately and moving manufacturing to another state/country isn't going to inspire a lot of confidence in the average Joe weather he be a passenger or investor. I guess this means they will have to train new people to maintain their current state of "shabby".

So the rest of Boeing WA workers can take it up the arse even more?

Boeing now has the upper hand in that they seem to be systematically relocating. Chicago is now the HQ, SC is an assembly plant and I'd bet that soon, another area (far from Seattle) will be happy to see a deal struck with Boeing. Other states and areas are also offering relocation incentives. If Boeing relocates completely, the people of WA state will have no one to thank but the union. It looks to me like the IAM want to emulate their brethren in the bakers union that shut down Hostess. Once Boeing shuts down operations in the northwest, the union will declare a "Victory for the working man" as their members begin lining up for unemployment.

You can't fix Stupid.

I could swear I have heard for years how good it is to work for Boeing. Good benefits, pay, etc.

NY Times -

Under My Thumb

"SEATTLE — This is how the middle class dies, not with a bang, but a forced squeeze. After a global corporation posts record profits, it asks the state that has long nurtured its growth for the nation’s biggest single tax break, and then tells the people who make its products that their pension plan will be frozen, their benefits slashed, their pay raises meager. Take it or we leave. And everyone caves.

Well, almost everyone. All went according to script as the Boeing Company showed what to expect in a grim future for a diminished class — the vanishing American factory worker. The threats were issued, the tax giveaways approved, the political leaders warned of the need to buckle to Boeing....

...The events of the last few days show the utter bankruptcy of economic policy prescriptions offered by both political parties. You want tax breaks and deregulation — the Republican mantra? The $8.7 billion granted Boeing this week is the largest single state-tax giveaway in the nation’s history. It wasn’t enough. You want government training for schools and highly skilled workers — the Democratic alternative? There was plenty of that, to Boeing’s liking, in the package."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/15/op...umb.html?_r=1&

How many here are unionized pilots? Would you be willing to open up your current agreement mid-term to give concessions to a company who just posted record profits? This, while threatening to move your pilot base? I know many of you have endured concessions under bankruptcy and the threat of bankruptcy, but Boeing does not have that problem.

They smell an opportunity to suck more life out of the working class line workers with the threat of moving. Of course that is only my opinion.

Wrong conclusion. This is a replay of Detroit. Boeing is just being a little smarter than GM, Chrysler and Ford were back in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Sadly the unions, with a lot of help from management, nearly destroyed the American auto industry, who couldn't see past the next short term contract.

What are the chances of IAM members being able to hold their union bosses responsible for the loss of thousands of Boeing jobs in Washington state, once Boeing decides to move its operations somewhere else?
Well, glad you asked. The chances of that will be 0.00.

Labor is a cost of business, just as is power, raw materials, waste disposal (you may not know who runs that business, but I assure you it ain't the Boy Scouts), transportation, taxation, and other things.

Nobody would find fault with relocating to a place where taxes or raw materials or power or transportation costs would be lower.

But just let you talk about moving somewhere because you want lower labor costs and fewer disruptions to production because of labor and watch the screeching and hysteria occur...

Boeing will not leave the Seattle area for a long, long time. Take a look at all the orders for 737. The plan is to ramp up production to 43 a month fairly soon, with a backlog of orders.
Boeing IS a great place to work, regardless of whether it's in WA or not. I know, I work for them. (Not in WA either) The pay is great and the benefits are great as well.
It's ironic that I turned down the 'opportunity' to go fly for a regional carrier a few years ago instead took a job back at Boeing. (Yes, been thru two layoffs with Boeing). I make twice as much more than any first year FO's regional, and have great medical benefits for my family as well a company pension and matching 401K as well as college tuition re-imbursement which I am currently using for my M.A.S.
Also ironic, I do NOT and have NEVER worked for a Union shop and hope it remains that way.
Not a perfect company for sure, but look at all the recent orders and news for outlooks on commercial aircraft. I seem to remember a major automobile maker having "gas pedal" issues a few years ago.

Don't sweat the small stuff, and don't expect Boeing to leave WA.

Yes, but shirley we can get pilots to work for even less...

Be careful, you may get what you vote for..

Boeing may look to the MidEast after unions reject Seattle 777X plan - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com

Nope. Boeing ain't leaving Seattle now, or ever. There's too much infrastructure here.

As for the machinists... I find it disturbing that a bunch of pilots will stand around and criticize a labor group that voted to hold the line on compensation, after what we've collectively gone through in the last 20 years. Their contract wasn't even up for a few more years, and management wanted frozen pensions and a gutted payscale.

Boeing will move the 777X regardless of the vote outcome. The best you can do as a worker is full pay to the last day. Everyone yells about Pinnacle and PSA voting for cuts in favor of theoretical job security, but then anyone who holds the line is "stupid."

Who said they were leaving Seattle in it's entirety?

Management chose to minimize the cost of doing business and unions chose to maximize their wages and benefits. It might seem both could have compromised, but Boeing has other choices too - there are workers elsewhere who could choose to work for less than those in WA state.

Nowhere in Puget Sound can these workers earn a fraction of the money that they can earn at Boeing.
They resisted (I see nothing about their contract being 're-opened, this was for future work). Boeing offered a $10,000 signing bonus, having future retirement monies subject to a defined contribution plan, having to pay higher co-pay amounts for healthcare costs. Apparently the prospect of future work was just too much of a sacrifice for these workers who earn about $60-70,000 per year before overtime and with much vacation time.

They remind me of the unionized autoworkers who felt that they were indispensable until the factories closed and production moved to the South and to Mexico.

I can understand the frustration of the workers because they bailed out 787 production after management took a McDonnell-Douglas approach to subcontract out nearly all work except for final assembly and that cost the company billions. The workers also kept the cash flowing with record 737 production. when the company needed that cash due to the drain of revenue shortfalls from delayed deliveries, of paying to correct the manufacture of the 787, and of paying penalties to airlines suffering from delayed deliveries.

Unfortunately for the Puget Sound machinists, many just voted themselves out of future employment later this decade and beyond. They would have been clever to take this deal as their leverage would have increased once Boeing constructed the 777X in Everett.

In any event, the chest-thumping shop stewards who exhorted the "no" vote won't lose their jobs; they never do.

"As for the machinists... I find it disturbing that a bunch of pilots will stand around and criticize a labor group that voted to hold the line on compensation, after what we've collectively gone through in the last 20 years. Their contract wasn't even up for a few more years, and management wanted frozen pensions and a gutted pay scale."

It has never been about what the Unionist want or think is fair. It has always been about what they can do and how much they want for their services compared to everyone else. The entire notion of unionism is anti-competitive -- you hold an employer hostage to interuptions from strikes and/or having to rehire and retrain a large portion of their workforce, and use that leverage to ask for higher wages and benefits than there are similarly skilled and willing individuals in the economy is willing to work for.

Regardless, now that they have rejected a readjustment of their expectations based on the current market value of their skills and labor, my prediction is as follows:

Washington (Puget Sound) gets to keep final assembly of the 777X. The large composite wing goes to Spirit Wichita Kansas (if they can get a decent labor contract there), or it goes to Mitsubishi in Japan which has a ready workforce and has the facility. Fuselage sections get parcelled out to Long Beach, Charleston, Utah or Texas. Propulsion nacelles go to Charleston in the new composite facilty already being built for this purpose.

Basically, the IAM unionists get to keep about 1/3 the work and the 777 workforce drops from 22,000 to about 7,000~8,000. Boeing gets to keep final assembly in skilled if pricey hands, and it gets to keep the use of the existing massive 747/777 facility in Everett. The wing and prefab fuselage sections go elsewhere. Propulsion nacelles go to Charleston. ISM union rolls in Puget Sound go from about 55,000 to 40,000 in 2020.

And that worked out so well for the 787 program.

Boeing has a problem, and it is not their employees -- who cost less than Airbus's.

Boeing's senior management needs to get their heads out of the MBA clouds and start worrying about designing and building airplanes.

Boeing will break even on a unit-cost basis for each 787 starting in 2014....what metric are you using? Meanwhile, the -9 entered test back in Sep.
Charleston and Long Beach can use the work.

Their union should really open their eyes and start worrying about the future rather than grasping for the past. First, HQ moves to Chicago, then they open a new plant in Charleston, SC. Management is looking for partners. South Carolina (leadership and the workforce) have proven to be good partners. Can organized labor say the same thing? I don't think so. They have about 18 months to change their ways in the Pacific NW ... its up to them.

If everybody unionized we wouldn't be having this conversation and having a union would be a cost of doing business much like upper management pay scales. It's always the unions fault when things don't go well for the company, isn't it?

The union thing is far past any logical discourse and management will finally bite the bullet and pull out for greener pastures. Unless the citizen's of Washington state ever wake up, and embrace right to work legislation, industry and jobs will continue to locate elsewhere. I have been amazed at the patience of management to remain in Washington but things change and the objectives of the stockholders have to be considered.

The IAM knows Boeing is going to do what ever they want regardless of the outcome of the vote. They were right to hold the line on pay and benefits. Now the gov of Washington is saying the state is going to have to compete to keep Boeing in Washington. The ball is now in Washington's court.

So Washington state is going to subsidize the union to retain noncompetitive union labor wages and demands?
Competitive bidding for selecting manufacturing sites would really be interesting!

Yes. They had already offered dramatic tax benefits. Now they will have to do a little better. Boeing was stupid the way they outsourced the 787. Now it's time to see if they will be stupid again. My guess is they will.

The thread title did.

No, they couldn't have. There's no compromising on an individual basis when your only option is a "yes" or "no" vote. The union leadership let their members down by placing this turd of a deal in front of them. Now we get to see if the two parties can come back to the table and re-negotiate. I'm betting they will. SPEEA voted down an absolute crap-pile of a deal, and re-negotiated another agreement which then passed.

Incorrect. Do you know how much a factory worker at Boeing makes to start? If anyone gets furloughed, it will be the junior people. The low-seniority wages at Boeing are easily made elsewhere.

There's not as much vacation time as you think there is, and there's not as much money before overtime as you think there is. Also, my health insurance at my regional airline is about on par with what I had when I was on Boeing insurance.

Except for the fact that Boeing products made in SC are still coming through Everett for fixes before they are delivered, due to manufacturing issues with the location that has the cheaper workforce.

And the acknowledgement that the outsourcing in the 787 project was a massive failure means that outsourcing the 777X is a legitimate threat....? Or that since Boeing outsourced the 787, then they certainly weren't going to do the same with their next airplane, regardless of the vote?

How, exactly, would their leverage increased when they're committed to a long-term contract? You can have all of the leverage in the world, but unless you're due for negotiations.... you're bound to the last thing you signed.

Likely true.



This. If I remember right, the tax breaks Washington offered Boeing amount to something like $500,000,000 per month.

Considering the tax cuts that Washington State has given Boeing, the only people left to pay the taxes to support the infrastructure that Boeing uses are the workers.

Ha! Excellent point.

Really? How many hundreds of millions in Business & Occupation taxes has Washington State collected from Boeing, which is based on receipts, not income?

I think you have it backwards. The tax breaks subsidize union pay. If Boeing takes its business elsewhere, the state stands to lose income tax revenue (from workers, not the corporation) including in-state ancillary companies that depend on Boeing for its revenues.

Seattle City Councilmember-elect shares radical idea with... | www.kirotv.com

"“The workers should take over the factories, and shut down Boeing’s profit-making machine,” Sawant announced to a cheering crowd of union supporters in Seattle’s Westlake Park Monday night. "

“We can re-tool the machines to produce mass transit like buses, instead of destructive, you know, war machines,” she told KIRO 7.

Just more destruction of the manufacturing sector by unions. Time for Boeing to leave Seattle.

It appears some of Boeing's biggest customers are against that.

So I'm wathcing the evening new tonight, and after they show the Dream Lifter lifing off from the 6100' runway, the go to a story about how the Seattle Times placed an add, asking Boeing to please build the 777X in Seattle.

Front and center on the add, with the words wrapped around it, is a big picture of an airplane...an Airbus 320!

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1525007

"The ad, which prominently displays the logo of the Washington Aerospace Partnership, a coalition of business, labor and government groups championing the industry, urges state lawmakers to pass a large-scale roads and transit tax package that Boeing executives have said would make the state a more desirable venue for future projects.
Airbus officials confirmed the plane depicted in the ad is an A320 but declined further comment."

About as brilliant as the DNC using images of Russian ships in their 2012 convention tribute to the US Navy.

So the union approved a contract extension today. The 777X is staying in Seattle.


The contract was better than the last deal, but still not that great.

Pension
 

New York Times article reported that this agreement passed narrowly!
51% voted in favor. That is about as devided as it gets. There is a book out (What Union No Longer Do) That the article says addresses this comtemporary issue.

I spent a few yerars in a union, and saw the pension disappear with bancrupcy. Thomas Buffer, the head of IAM national called the current situation at Boeing "The Tail Wagging the Dog" since none of the other groups are getting a pension anyway.