Envoy Flow Question
 

I'm considering going to Envoy - the primary thing attracting me there is the flow. I know it would be a while, but that's fine, I can be patient.

However, I was talking with an AA pilot and he said that for flow, AA will only be required to take 800 some more pilots - after that, pilots will still flow, but AA can say no... which to me makes it worthless. If I go to Envoy, I want that guarantee.

Can someone get me some factual details about the Envoy Flow program?

Ask Compass how their flow is going. Don't pick an airline for the flow, they could end tomorrow. That's my advice. If you have other reasons for Envoy great but seriously should so some research if your primary determining factor is flow...

Simply not the case anymore. To be honest this advice was probably prudent in like 2005, not anymore. AA is hanging a lot on it's "flow hat". They know if anything happens to the flow their precious WO feed will wither and die due to not being able to hire. It also keeps costs low at said WO. Id say the flow is pretty safe for the forseeable future.

The Compass pilots who got hired under the flow program flowed. Anyone hired after they were sold to TSH was never offered any flow.

Yeah man, what are you talking about? The Compass pilots who had a flow, flowed. Those hired after a certain date were never offered any sort of flow when they were new hires. Best to get your facts straight if you're going to answer someone's question. And to the OP, what that AA pilot told you is 100% false. Our flow numbers change at certain benchmarks in the seniority list, but everyone on property (including new hires) will be offered a position at AA as long as AA is hiring.

That guy you spoke with is misinformed. The only thing that changes as time goes on is the minimum percentage of pilots who are required to flow per month. But at no time can AA simply say no flows, unless they stop hiring. As long as AA is hiring flows are required to go as well.

In before everyone starts talking about post 9/11 broken promises...as if it has any bearing on the current situation.

100% inaccurate.

Why is it that those with the smallest brains always have the biggest mouths? In line with your complete misunderstanding of how the Compass Flow worked, I wouldn't recommend that any person take a job in the United States of America. The country is only a couple of hundred years old, pretty young compared to other countries. We don't really know that they country is going to take or not. I'd go get a job in China, a country with thousands of years of history.

The Compass flow worked, completely as advertised. The company simply chose to not extend the flow beyond it's contractually required limitation. Envoy's (or any WOed) flow has no end point unless the contract is changed during normal section 6 negotiations.

The Envoy profile page has the breakdown of the flow agreement.

As your Envoy thread has a daily argument about the inaccurate "projections" of your flow...where no one really understands it. Try to not take someone else's opinion so personal. Lol. Softest skin people on this forum are when you say something about their flow.


My point was picking a regional for a flow? Seriously? You guys act like you know the future. Settle down and open your minds. This industry is extremely volatile....apparently Envoy has some exception? Compass was my example and they were wholly owned.....

You say my comment was stupid and follow it up with that? Loool

AA hiring is based on the economy, which as we all know is a cycle. Once the economy turns south, the hiring will stop along with the flow through.

The gamble all new hires face is, do you think you can get hired and flow through before the economy turns? If you guess right, fantastic. If you guess wrong, you might end up stuck as an FO at step 4 pay without bonuses.

My advice would be to try to get on with a regional that offers good career advancement, but at the same time would be acceptable for the long term if needed. Also, don't underestimate quality-of-life issues.

Actually anyone hired after the DAL/NWA merger were never offered any flow. Compass was originally a WO'd NWA carrier.

As to your assessment about AA WO'd flow, I fully agree.

I don't think it matters what Regional you're at if the economy turns South enough where airlines stop hiring. At that point you're screwed anyways, best thing you can hope for is that you're not at the bottom on reserve.

Rumor- just a rumor- from an AA captain. Don't be shocked if they take away the flow. AA is struggling with the pilot shortage, but I guess some of the flow pilots have had a hard time transitioning. I don't know why and he didn't know why, but that's just what he said. ONLY A RUMOR.

I can count on one hand, literally, the number of Envoy flows who didn't make it. And they all should have been axed at Eagle years ago..in other words, it's their own fault. Otherwise flows are thriving at AA..from Envoy and the other two as well. Sorry, bad rumor.

Yeah, it's just a rumor! The pilot shortage is here and think the majors may approve more flow throughs or partnerships just so they can get qualified pilots. The rumor just what this AA captain was telling me the other day...

And that is exactly what it is...only a rumor. And a ludicrous one at that. If AA was having such a problem with the pilot shortage that they felt the need to violate a huge provision of the contract, they would first start to run new hire classes larger than 60ish pilots a month.

For one thing, no mainline needs flow so it can find pilots. Anyone believing otherwise is an idiot. The ones that need flow is the regionals, and the flow is to attract new hires and for them not to leave until flow time.the only mainline with a truly flow is aa, all others are interview. The only regionals that have an actual flow is envoy, psa and pdt.

Many years ago AA was having some issues with the first batch of flows. Some of the guys on the line remember that and still think it's true today. It isn't.

Just curious, but why only Envoy? PSA and PDT have flows as well

This is 100% accurate what the AA pilot said. AA can deny pilots based on discipline. Too many MAs/sick calls or other discipline issues will keep you from flowing. The 824 only has a CA requirement but the rest of us have to be good boys and girls.

The Protected Pilot group doesn't have the CA requirement nor does it have the "no open disciplinary issues" clause. That's all for those hired after 10/2011. But regardless, I think the OP was implying that an AA pilot assumed that AAG can stop the flow whenever they want for any reason they want.

What? How is that at all accurate

After the 824 comes the protected pilots and being "good boys and girls" has absolutely no impact. And then for the rest after the 824 and after the protected pilots AND if you get disciplined for attendance they could hold you back. But there is nothing said that after 800 more flows it they can say "no." I have no idea where that's coming from, because it's not true.

Ok I'm not a PP so I'm not as informed on your rules as my group.

Regardless, AA can deny the OP the chance to flow. Without question the OP does not have a guaranteed spot at AA.

I'm half drunk and even I can understand what he was asking about. Sky vector and everyone else on here is just a bit to trigger happy to defend the flow. And yes we all know AA can shut the flow down when ever they so desire even if we have it written on a piece of paper. As the old saying goes fly it and grieve it.

I suppose they can do whatever and stop the flow and grieve it and all. Are we really going to argue every point of what they could vs could not do, and what's possible vs not...of course not!

The op asked if they can or will/could just stop the flow at 800 or so? The answer is NO. Right now is the 824, then protected pilots...no one can be held back for discipline (outside being fired) in those groups. Then the rest, who can be held back on an individual bases for letters of discipline. There is NO WHERE saying that at magical number 800 (or any other number) they can just say no more flows or anything like that. That was the question.

And to answer him (or any other new hire/candidate), as long as AA hires you flow...plain and simple. I guess as long as you don't have disciplinary letters in your file, it's not guess work. Be patient and wait your turn and it'll come (again assuming they're hiring, which is what all future hiring at all airlines is projected upon).

Facts:
1. Contractually AA has to flow a certain number of Envoy pilots per month as long as AA hires.
2. The OP can be denied the flow if he has disciplinary issues at Envoy.

Do they stop all the mandatory retirement if the economy goes down? I doubt it.

You may want to talk to a Union rep and get some actual facts. You seem to have been led into the bushes by someone.

No, but they start to cut capacity which reduces mainline flying which reduces the need for pilots even with attrition.

Haven't been in the biz that long have you.

As opposed to who? A crusty America West guy who won the lottery and can now call himself an AA pilot?

Thanks for Scott Kirby...boy was he fun.

Yeah well at least that crusty old America west pilot actually interviewed at a major airline.


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Probably because the 18 year flows hadn't done a new type in 18 years maybe? And they're old.

Lots of ATRs and Saabs at Envoy still? Those guys were promised a ton and AA screwed them pretty hard, good for them to finally get the call to mainline.

If there are no new hire classes at AA then, yes the flow stops.

Buddy if there is another Great Recession all companies stop hiring not just AA. Did you think of that?

[QUOTE=JetMonkey;2329321]No, but they start to cut capacity which reduces mainline flying which reduces the need for pilots even with attrition.

Haven't been in the biz that long have you.[/QUOTE

Good luck in retirement. Since you've been in the biz so long 65 must not be far away. Thanks for your input and all knowing insight on the future of AA hiring.

Yes, that's why I recommended people looking to hire at a regional, look for one that has both good flow through as well as long-term possibilities.

Look a few posts back.