Goal: American...fly anywhere but Envoy?
 

If a pilot sought a career with American as their destination/career airline, is Envoy - as American's wholly-owned carrier - the worst possible regional they could work for?

My theory is that the progressively-deepening pilot shortage is driving the major/legacy airlines to create "systems" in which they can manage the pilots (i.e., balance between regional & mainline) as they see fit to do as much cheap flying as possible, so - in flow/agreement scenarios with a wholly-owned regional - pilots who are part of the wholly-owned regional won't get to the mainline carrier as fast as they would by applying from outside the "system." Thoughts??

I have no Part 121 experience so I would love nothing more than for the folks who have done some turns to correct me if this is a bad/incorrect way of thinking.

Being a part of a WO doesn’t mean you are exempt from being hired off the street. I am actively updating applications and networking to not have to rely on the flow. If it works and I get there sooner, great. If not I have the flow in my back pocket. With the flow for today’s new hire as long as it is again, you may be better off going somewhere like a LCC, or endeavor with their new contract, while actively pursuing the major carriers.

I would tend to agree thatfor people coming in now, there are much faster ways to American or any other mainline/lcc than Envoy. At this rate I almost consider Envoy a hinderence in some regards. Keep your apps out and updated and always be ready to jump.

I would like to see the stats on AA OTS hires. Percentage of wholly owned OTS hired vs other regionals. The pessimist in me wonders if there might be a lower number for the WOs.

Better believe it

I wonder if it's because they are lazy and not having their apps out.

As much as don’t like to say this and so many say otherwise, THE MAJORS HAVE NO SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED APPLICANTS.

While I agree that “you can’t win if you don’t play”, getting hired OTS at a major requires you to stand out from all the other 15,000 or so regional pilots.

Of the 3-4,000 pilots hired by AA, UAL, DAL, SWA, UPS, FedEx, every year the majority are still going to be military and pilots who can add diversity to the airline.

That only leaves a small group and you have to really stand out to get the call. Bachelors degree or BETTER, Check Airman, etc.

There are valid arguments for both sides here. On one side, the current flow to aa from envoy is in the neighborhood of a decade. I'm not quite sure how it happened but amazingly their flow language gets progressively worse instead of better as more pilots flow. Their management is metering their flow to as few as possible even though they are growing and getting pilots. Back in 2015, a few got lucky and may actually have a 5-6 year flow. Psa who used to have the worse flow loses way more pilots to oustide attrition than envoy and should have 2014 hires flowing in later 2019. Piedmont has the smallest group and a few lifers and also has a fairly quick flow to aa, but I'm not sure what its looking like for newhires as of 2016 to today though.

On the other hand, in an aa newhire class of 40, 20 will be from envoy, 10 from psa, 5 from piedmont, which leaves 5 ots hires. Of those 5 you can bet 4 will be military which leaves 1/40 ots civilian hires. Not very good odds to get to aa as an ots civilian. The door to aa is pretty much shut to ots civilians.

This doesn't seem to be stopping people from going to envoy though as their latest class had 71 and there are no signs of slowing down. There is no incentive for managment to match endeavors pay so long as they are filling classes.

Might be true, but the bigger worry for civilian OTS hires is that flows and military pilots take up the vast majority of AA's new hires. They hire from regionals, they even hire from WO, but the total numbers are small.

The flow language for today's hires was shoved down our throat in 2014. Flow through will work out great for many- for others it is a tease, and a means to keep you flying regionals for cheap.

AA's current trend for OTS Civilian hires is around 9%. AA hired about 75 OTS civilians last year. That is pretty competitive. About a third of those 75 would fall into the non white male category. If you are a white male without some significant connection or quality, your chances of OTS hire at AA, regardless of your current employer is pretty slim. Envoy's flow could realistically take 7 - 10 years but its still, imo, a better bet than the chance you could be among the 400 civilian white males that will get hired OTS in that time frame.

Envoy's current flow system didn't develop overnight. It has been the evolution of several negotiation periods. PSA and PDT have both negotiated improvements to their flow. APA has been able to negotiate several contractual gains outside of Section 6 negotiations. If I were an Envoy pilot, I think I would be badgering Envoy's MEC to do the same.

AA hired 645 pilots in 2017. Out of that, 360 were flow throughs from the 3 WOs and 285 were street hires. Of the 360 flows, 263 came from Envoy, 52 from PSA, and and 45 from PDT. Only 60 of the pilots hired at AA in 2017 didn't come from a WO regional nor had any military training.

That’s all well and good if American is a must for you. Even in the mainline world AA isn’t the best just like how Envoy isn’t the best in the regional world. One could argue that mainline and lcc flying will be fairly similar in the coming years.

Are you a white male with no military experience, no aspirations of being a check airman, and nothing else to separate you from the other 15,000 John Doe's in the system? Then good luck.

I don't know where this myth comes from that legacies are just snatching guys up from the regionals once they hit 1000 hours of PIC now or in the near future. Ask Mesa pilots how that's working out for them.

Also, like others said, there's nothing that prevents you from trying to get hired off the street with AA from Envoy. I know a few that have done it, but they were all in possession of high amounts of melanin and/or estrogen.

I don’t believe anyone is saying mainline is hiring everyone off the streets right now.

Not from folks actively in the industry, but as the OP said, he has zero 121 time. When I was a flight instructor weighing my regional airline options, at least where I was at, the overarching theme was "There's a pilot shortage, so go to the place that gets you the quickest upgrade time so you can get PIC and get hired at a major." That's terrible advice.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that there's a 24-year old flight instructor out there with 1000/1250/1500 hours looking to go to a regional. And for the sake of argument, let's just say that flow time is (worst case scenario) 10 years. You can go to a place with no flow and bank on the assumption that the majors are going to get into a hiring crunch and hire anyone that is able to maintain a body temperature somewhere roughly in the 90's. But to me that's rolling the dice with your future. Nobody knows what the future holds, particularly in this industry.

Alternatively, you can go to a place with flow. If you still want to roll the dice, you can roll the dice and try to get on with AA OTS or another major OTS. But in your back pocket, worst case scenario, you're on with AA with 30 years of flying left ahead of you. Seems to me to be a no-brainer. Unless you have crippling debt as a 24-year old and other regionals are offering significantly more pay or you're returning to the industry as a 40 year old, flow is the best choice. No sense in rolling the dice with the first 10 years of your pilot career at the expense of the next 30. That's why Envoy classes are still full even when recruitment is being honest about flow time.

Thank you - more details on me
 

Thanks to all for your thoughts/insight/perspective.

I'm white male and won't be getting on with a regional until my early 40's. (Again, no prior 121 or professional flying experience.)

I wonder if my age means that I should prioritize getting on with 1 of the 3 WO's? In other words, is 'automatic' flow my best bet of getting on with a major at an older age? Assuming comparable TT/TPIC/other individual attributes, won't a major - or even an LCC - want to get their hooks into someone younger than me who can provide more years of service?

So here is the deal. You are in a unique spot in that you won’t ever make top pay at a mainline and won’t have great seniority until the last few years of your career. Flow is ok if you feel American is your airline of choice, but there will be other options.

I find when people defend the flow so heavily, they assume AA is the only game in town, when in fact it isn’t. United, Delta, Alaska, Southwest, Jet Blue, Spirit,Frontier etc all need pilots and demand “should” only increase.

A strong argument could be made for someone in your shoes to pick an LCC like spirit and stay with them for the entirety of your career. With their pay set to nearly match AA soon you will have a much better quality of life and move up the seniority list much quicker there. This holds true for other non-mainline companies as well. I am not saying it has to be them, but rather be sure to look at your situation realistically.
Will someone getting to AA or any other mainline at 50 (ten year flow and you will be 40 when hired) get to reach the pinnacle of 121 flying? No, the chances are far to slim to bank on and too many will be ahead of you. If you were 25-30 asking this question it would be a different answer.

This entire equation leaves out one huge factor not often talked about. Overseas contract flying. While I understand it isn’t for everyone, the opportunities here will be huge with some very workable situations for US based pilots. This is the biggest growth sector in the next 20 years and if you think we have a shortage of pilots, do some research on those carriers. There are already offers out that can be commutable.

Anyway, long story short, keep your options open and realistic while avoiding the “must go mainline AA” mentality. There are lots of compelling reasons to look elsewhere while still making competitive pay and a better QOL.

If you're in your early 40s you'll still have 20+ years of availability to the airline. If you consider that if an airline is considering years of service they also would be considering retirement dates it really isn't a big factor. If everyone getting hired now is the same age then they'll run into another retirement boom at the same time in the future. Interspersing some older pilots into the mix does help with that somewhat.

In the past this may have been a factor but these days it isn't as much of one if at all. Just don't approach it like it is. Delta has hired people in their 50s in the past few years (and I think at least one that was 60 or approaching 60) and I'm sure if American hasn't off the street they've had flows approaching that age.

Remember that a flow may take you 10years, which just means 10 years less at the major, so even if you had a flow I would encourage being very active in the application pipeline. Don't discount the guaranteed interview programs either.

Many thanks, AZPilotMike, and I certainly appreciate the mentorship. I can see how LCC's could lead to a better career ($ & QoL) for an older guy like me; younger folks might go regional to LCC to Big 3 such that I'd get opportunities at an LCC that would never come at the Big 3 and Spirit's contract narrows the ground financially with Big 3 (although still lacks defined contribution and some other big wins for a Big 3 pay structure). I haven't focused on overseas opportunities yet, but I understand there are lucrative opportunities there already that should grow in the years ahead and I need to learn more about these opportunities. Thanks again for the help.

Thanks a lot, Baradium. I certainly don't plan to apologize for being longer in the tooth (hopefully maturity & previous real-world experience doing something else shows conviction in being a professional airline pilot and you make a good point about an airline needing to spread out their mandatory retirement ages a bit) and that's good to hear that you don't see my age as a big issue.

Whichever regional that I get an opportunity with, I have a desire to put my head down and progress (TPIC) - rather than chase QoL initially - in order to maximize my opportunities for my destination airline (Big 3 or major/LCC). The Big 3 is as good as it gets, but I don't have emotional attachment or SJS to the extent that I don't see the upside in a major/LCC as well, especially for an older guy (increased seniority & QoL quicker), so I'm sucking in info from everywhere I can to chart the best course for my family & I. The true flow the 3 AA WO's have is meaningful (great backup/insurance if nothing else) and I live in DFW so Envoy is a natural fit there, plus I've heard good things about Envoy's training environment (line me out if I need it here...) and Envoy's Cadet Program would be very helpful also as I transition careers (health benefits - not travel benefits - and some supplemental $ while working as a CFI). I'm leery of the guaranteed interview programs; they seem so riddled with issues & uncertainty (which may or may not be intentional uncertainty...) that they feel like nothing more than recruiting tools for the regional much of the time! Is my skepticism there well-founded or should I be placing more stock in the guaranteed interview programs?

Looking out a loooong ways for the regional airlines & industry as a whole, but - when the current Envoy contract expires in 2024 - is there any potential that the flow (true/"automatic" flow!) might be modified to adversely affect Envoy's pilot group's opportunity to reach the mainline?? (i.e., transitioned to a guaranteed interview program like the current EDV-DL or QX-AS relationships) Or is flow seen as the sacred cow for all involved (AAG, Envoy & pilot group) such that it would like stay in the next contract?

This is really solid and refreshing. I would definitely love to find a reason to keep me from having to sit here, make peanuts and wait for this magical flow.

Absolutely true!! Well said! For many, forget about United, American and Delta. Spirits pay raise just made them a player competing for the best and brightest. Some candidates will look down their nose at Spirit; being an embarrassing brand but a big paycheck, great QOL, insurance, profit sharing and 401k are what’s important. There will be far more opportunities in the future there as they eat away at the market share of the big 3, compete against Southwest and expand on the West Coast.