Seniority and Flow
 

Not trying to throw the F-bomb around, but I had a question about the flow itself. When it comes to flowing based off of seniority, is that company seniority, captain #, pilot #, or seniority in your aircraft? What this stems from is a comment from a ENY Captain that I was talking to the other day that argued that going to the 145 side and accruing seniority there will help flow faster than the 175 side. Any merit to this? I appreciate all of the help.

I left Envoy a long while back, but if nothing has changed you basically just had to wait your turn. There was no way to jump anybody by flying a different fleet type. While I was there you just had to wait in line and hope. As far as I know nothing has changed. So yeah company seniority.

Thanks! I appreciate your response.

Flow is still based on overall company seniority.

Having said that there may be some merit to what you heard. Voluntary CA upgrades are subject to a 1 year seat lock which will prevent flow. If someone wants to upgrade but thinks the seat lock may delay their flow waiting to upgrade on the 175 vs taking a 145 upgrade that's available now could make a difference.

Also you need to be a CA or have held a CA seat to flow as per the new LOA.

What he meant was that all the lifers are on the 175 enjoying the long legs and good apu. If you ever want to see weekends off before you flow the 145 is the way to go

This may be true in Dallas, not so much in ORD. Most of the Captains there seem to be younger, with an average of 12-16 months to flow. Movement up the list should happen at a bearable pace up there.

To the OP, its company seniority.

Until the lifers on the CRJ come over to the 175 and clog the top...

Yo elpflyer are you dallas based?

Fleet is flow neutral. The FO seat lock and radically different NH experience on the 145 just makes it seem like there are two different airlines, actually it's only one. The only advantage of the 145 is the extra couple bucks on day one, and you'll blow through that easily in your first month off IOE hiring rides back and forth between JFK/LGA lol

Only 9 lifers left.

Not yet, and probably not for a while. I am on with the cadet program with a school out in Denton, TX. I am trying to figure out which aircraft I would like to fly if I were to be afforded the opportunity to choose. At the end of the day, a jet is a jet, is a jet and I will be appreciative to be building 121 turbine time. I wanted to find out from those that have been in the same boat, if it were better to take the bonus money with the 140/145 or enjoy the forward lav of the 175.

Between the two sides of the company, which one seems to have most productive NH experience?

175 ORD by a landslide

31 lifers based on the 3xp on the 145 DFW. Anyone have any numbers on other positions?

Basically, the NH experience on the 145 is awful because of NYC. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and I don't recommend coming to Envoy to anyone who isn't a cadet because of it. The company and union agreed to do some things to soften the blow of NY reserve, which has helped a lot. Now you can at least earn money instead of dipping into your savings and paying to work for the first 3 months, but the QOL and morale is low and everyone is just trying to get out.

What’s so bad about NY for a new-hire FO?? Three months of unlimited hotels and positive space travel. By then you should easily be holding a line. What about the one’s who live in the Northeast? Isn’t NY a no-brainer for them?

I get the DEC argument, but an FO looking for rapid seniority progression would likely do well in NY.

Different story if you live in the Midwest or West. I just think NY gets a worse rap than it really deserves. IF the airline was stagnating, which it’s not, then long-time reserve there for a commuter could be a costly proposition due to the crash pad and transportation issues.

ORD Seniority
 

Any chance of a newbie getting ORD based after training?

That’s just a crock of crap. I did almost a year as a new hire in LGA, two leg commuted much of the time and never used a commuter clause. NYC will always be the turnover base for airlines because people don’t want to be there, but it’s not that bad.

Absolutely. Either pick ORD 175 in training (if offered, and if it’s available when your turn comes up), or preference bid a base transfer. ORD should not take long to get into on the 145. My guess is within 6-7 months (1-2 vacancy bids) of your class date.

Agreed. NY may not be somebody’s first choice of base, but I definitely wouldn’t avoid Envoy altogether simply because you might have to spend a few months in the Big Apple.

I live near base, and NY has been great for me.

One persons trash is another persons treasure.

What is this "waiting to upgrade" you speak of?

You might consider the CRJ as well.

Thanks!! I’m excited to hear this as I’m already typed in it!

What is the DOH for the most recent flows?

I know first of the year a 2006 hire flowed. However, there are relatively few hires that year and the next few years.

Hey Havick, I recently moved from Dallas to the suburbs of PHL. (Wife is from here) 2-3 hour drive to LGA depending on the time of day. Would love to hear how LGA 145 is (lines, overnights, flying etc) from somebody who actually wants to be there. Thanks!

Probably referring to the upcoming standing bid they will have for, most likely, 145 LGA. That will allow someone to voluntarily upgrade without waiting for the next bid. That will be a two year seat lock. That being said, I seriously doubt there is ANYONE who is within a timeframe that is affected by the flow seatlock that hasn’t already upgraded. Could be an issue if someone was already a captain in CRJ or 145 and wanted to fly the 175 their last year at Envoy.

PM me if you want

Most recent were March 2007, possibly into April 2007 by now.

FYI, there are still 167 pilots from 2007 waiting to flow, 113 from 2008, 0 from 2009, 86 from 2010, 237 from 2011. You and I probably have different understandings of the meaning of "relatively few."

However, there are indeed relatively few from the several years after 2011:

5 from 2012
67 from 2013
57 from 2014
75 from 2015.

Hiring really increased near the end of 2016, and 2017 was a huge year.

(All numbers are approximate.)

Thanks for taking the time to look up the numbers. I added months, based on 25 per month through 2011 and 15 per month from 2012-2015. Assumes no other attrition.

Based on this, 2007-2011 will flow in about 2 years.
2012-2015 will flow in just over 1 year.

Interesting perspective.

Thank you everyone for replying with valuable information.

How do you figure 07-11 will flow in two years and 12-15 will flow in “just over 1 year”? From when?!

I’m assuming he means 1 year after the 2007-2011 group is done. I could be wrong.

This does add up pretty close though as the 2016 new hires are 3-4 years out from now.

That is correct. So, by the end of 2021 or so, Envoy will have flowed all the 2007-2015 hires.

Should have said 2012-2015 is forecast to flow during another 1 year, AFTER all the 2007-2011 will have flowed. Sorry for the confusion.