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Old 09-29-2018, 07:27 AM   #1  
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Default Will we ever see pay increases in the near fu

At some point we have to start aligning with the rest of the top regionals and matching pay. Is this being negotiated or even on the talking table? Who cares about flow when there is literally going to be thousands of pilots retiring from ALL majors in the next few years. The only reason flow is so valuable at AA is because it is the only likely way of getting hired OTS unless you have fixed wing military experience (I know there has been a fair share of civilian/rotary hires but itís slim in comparison to the fixed wing mil). Iím not advocating getting rid of flow since itís so ingrained in the way Envoy operates now. However, I believe the number of people hired OTS who have been actively updating their applications the past few years would probably already have a class date at AA right now if those spots were not taken up by flow slots from the 3 WOs. Again, not saying get rid of the flow or change it, but why is this always the reasoning management gives for not increasing pay? Hopefully if Skywest passes their TA we will see a bigger drop in classes...I doubt it though.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:46 AM   #2  
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Originally Posted by Weekendwarrior2 View Post
At some point we have to start aligning with the rest of the top regionals and matching pay. Is this being negotiated or even on the talking table? Who cares about flow when there is literally going to be thousands of pilots retiring from ALL majors in the next few years. The only reason flow is so valuable at AA is because it is the only likely way of getting hired OTS unless you have fixed wing military experience (I know there has been a fair share of civilian/rotary hires but itís slim in comparison to the fixed wing mil). Iím not advocating getting rid of flow since itís so ingrained in the way Envoy operates now. However, I believe the number of people hired OTS who have been actively updating their applications the past few years would probably already have a class date at AA right now if those spots were not taken up by flow slots from the 3 WOs. Again, not saying get rid of the flow or change it, but why is this always the reasoning management gives for not increasing pay? Hopefully if Skywest passes their TA we will see a bigger drop in classes...I doubt it though.
No pay increase insight. Only on Jan 1 and your anniversary.
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:14 AM   #3  
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Express Jet passed their new TA. It should hit the books tomorrow. Lower on the ladder we stand.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:10 AM   #4  
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I erased my long rant about our pilot group that does everything for subpar pay rates and work rules. (Yes, I include myself in that group)


Short answer

No, we will not see pay raises because everyone is willing to sell their soul for the flow.


And yes, I have my apps out
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:22 AM   #5  
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Instead of just sitting back, what can we do about it?
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:05 AM   #6  
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There's almost no reason for Envoy to give us pay raises, they are turning new hires away in order to control exactly how they want the new hire classes to lay out. We're not losing current employees since half the pilot group will flow in 5 years or less (from today).

Looking into the future yes we could very well see a shortage of new hires again due to pay falling behind the norm. There's just not enough evidence today to convince AAG that pumping money into the pilot group will result in any financial returns for them.

Want to increase pay? Start convicing people to stop coming here now.. and maybe in 2 or 3 years AAG will bring pay back to the table.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:36 AM   #7  
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Default Will we ever see pay increases in the near fu

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There's almost no reason for Envoy to give us pay raises, they are turning new hires away in order to control exactly how they want the new hire classes to lay out. We're not losing current employees since half the pilot group will flow in 5 years or less (from today).



Looking into the future yes we could very well see a shortage of new hires again due to pay falling behind the norm. There's just not enough evidence today to convince AAG that pumping money into the pilot group will result in any financial returns for them.



Want to increase pay? Start convicing people to stop coming here now.. and maybe in 2 or 3 years AAG will bring pay back to the table.


Sorry I totally disagree with this position. We shoot ourselves in the foot all the time, by telling Management what they want to hear.

When folks come on here an support willfully a position that we donít need or wonít get a pay raise vs talking about why we need a pay raise we hurt the processs!!!

Telling people not to come here in hopes for a self supported pay raise is a totally wrong and self-entitlement motivated. The facts should always be spoken. RSV RULES SUCKS! WE LACK BEHIND PEERS IN PAY & SOFT PAY! PERIOD!

I donít understand how or why people come on here saying the company wonít give a pay raise... Really? How sure are you of that?

AAG/WO as part of the companies position and stance to be competitive will raise pay. Pay will always rise! The question is.... BY HOW MUCH & WHEN?


Hell did you see AA/WOs new FA uniforms? Itís all about competing for Customers, product, and employee talent. No matter how obvious the results. AA matched competition in raising baggage fees., did they want to? No! But management ďhaveĒ to execute mission statements, values, and strategic plans. Think about that. AAG gave Mainline Pilots and FAís a random raise last year not out of the kindness of their hear. But because they had to for reasons stated above. Think about that. To say no donít expect a pay raise IMHO is totally wrong. Your entitled to yours as well.

Now to OP, you have the right idea.... we are lagging further and further behind, and the almighty flow wonít help. Good thread.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:56 AM   #8  
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Originally Posted by SilentLurker View Post
Sorry I totally disagree with this position. We shoot ourselves in the foot all the time, by telling Management what they want to hear.

When folks come on here an support willfully a position that we donít need or wonít get a pay raise vs talking about why we need a pay raise we hurt the processs!!!

Telling people not to come here in hopes for a self supported pay raise is a totally wrong and self-entitlement motivated. The facts should always be spoken. RSV RULES SUCKS! WE LACK BEHIND PEERS IN PAY & SOFT PAY! PERIOD!

I donít understand how or why people come on here saying the company wonít give a pay raise... Really? How sure are you of that?

AAG/WO as part of the companies position and stance to be competitive will raise pay. Pay will always rise! The question is.... BY HOW MUCH & WHEN?


Hell did you see AA/WOs new FA uniforms? Itís all about competing for Customers, product, and employee talent. No matter how obvious the results. AA matched competition in raising baggage fees., did they want to? No! But management ďhaveĒ to execute mission statements, values, and strategic plans. Think about that. AAG gave Mainline Pilots and FAís a random raise last year not out of the kindness of their hear. But because they had to for reasons stated above. Think about that. To say no donít expect a pay raise IMHO is totally wrong. Your entitled to yours as well.

Now to OP, you have the right idea.... we are lagging further and further behind, and the almighty flow wonít help. Good thread.


A lot of your posts are well thought, constructive opinions and advice. Thank you

Building on that, it seems like AA is a REACTIVE company than they are innovative/ first to bring pay raises to the table. But when they do it typically is pretty solid to match competitions (especially endeavor).

So I think itís more of a matter of when, but there really isnít a way to predict that. Maybe we will see after ExpressJets new TA goes through?


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Old 09-29-2018, 11:21 AM   #9  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentLurker View Post
Sorry I totally disagree with this position. We shoot ourselves in the foot all the time, by telling Management what they want to hear.

When folks come on here an support willfully a position that we donít need or wonít get a pay raise vs talking about why we need a pay raise we hurt the processs!!!

Telling people not to come here in hopes for a self supported pay raise is a totally wrong and self-entitlement motivated. The facts should always be spoken. RSV RULES SUCKS! WE LACK BEHIND PEERS IN PAY & SOFT PAY! PERIOD!

I donít understand how or why people come on here saying the company wonít give a pay raise... Really? How sure are you of that?

AAG/WO as part of the companies position and stance to be competitive will raise pay. Pay will always rise! The question is.... BY HOW MUCH & WHEN?


Hell did you see AA/WOs new FA uniforms? Itís all about competing for Customers, product, and employee talent. No matter how obvious the results. AA matched competition in raising baggage fees., did they want to? No! But management ďhaveĒ to execute mission statements, values, and strategic plans. Think about that. AAG gave Mainline Pilots and FAís a random raise last year not out of the kindness of their hear. But because they had to for reasons stated above. Think about that. To say no donít expect a pay raise IMHO is totally wrong. Your entitled to yours as well.

Now to OP, you have the right idea.... we are lagging further and further behind, and the almighty flow wonít help. Good thread.
Want to know why in sure we won't get raises. In March the company had agreed to it and then AAG nixed it.

We gave up our bargaining power when we left the FO flex pay open ended and at the company discretion.

We keep having our union handing the company bandaids to fix the issues the company is creating. The company has no reason to fix the issues and let the the upgrade process be fixed by pay increases for CAs.
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Old 09-29-2018, 01:39 PM   #10  
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AA's management style is all fire department. They won't throw water on anything unless it's burning.
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