History of the Airline for the New Guys
07-14-2019, 12:39 PM
#31
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Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 226
Originally Posted by 272922
Never said Envoy had a gun to our head. AAG on the other hand.....
Oh, and thank you for making my point for me. As I said earlier, PSA made a begrudging strategic retreat, as has reaped the gains every step of the way.
And by the way, Envoy never owned any of that flying. No regional ever has.
Yeah, that's it, AAG would've come to their senses and just given everyone current PSA pay rates in 2013 had only one of the smallest carriers at the time given them the middle finger so that Envoy pilots could feel better about themselves. Riiiiiight……..
Oh, and there's that Envoy entitlement there on full display. News Flash for those that haven't gotten the memo yet, you work for a freaking regional that doesn't own any flying. Not AA, which actually does own the flying. Shocker I know.
Oh, and thank you for making my point for me. As I said earlier, PSA made a begrudging strategic retreat, as has reaped the gains every step of the way.
And by the way, Envoy never owned any of that flying. No regional ever has.
Yeah, that's it, AAG would've come to their senses and just given everyone current PSA pay rates in 2013 had only one of the smallest carriers at the time given them the middle finger so that Envoy pilots could feel better about themselves. Riiiiiight……..
Oh, and there's that Envoy entitlement there on full display. News Flash for those that haven't gotten the memo yet, you work for a freaking regional that doesn't own any flying. Not AA, which actually does own the flying. Shocker I know.
07-14-2019, 01:47 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,649
Originally Posted by MEGAFUPM
He doesn't work at envoy.
I got one always get something from Cujo’s posts.
07-14-2019, 02:13 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,123
Originally Posted by 272922
Never said Envoy had a gun to our head. AAG on the other hand.....
Point of fact, when AAG did finally get their second pound of flesh; they were back within 3 months adding LOA after LOA to restore what they’d taken, and more. Why? Because they couldn’t fill their seats. Which is exactly what we told them would happen.
Closing MIA and NY were mistakesback then that we told the replacement vendors couldn’t staff. We Told them we’d be back in NY within a year. It was a year and one month later when it reopened. The Envoy MEC has been much more accurate at seeing the direction the industry would go than any of the managers. They’re still better at it than AAG.
Another post suggested a friendlier more trusting approach with management. I’d just like to ask how many times that your lied to directly to your face by CEO or VP’s does it take before you trust only what they actually do, not what they say? Every time we trusted them since 1994 we got screwed. Go ask some really senior guys who’ve been there a while the full history of AMR-AAG. At Envoy, it’s still very much an AMR style operation.
Last edited by Cujo665; 07-14-2019 at 02:23 PM.
07-14-2019, 02:39 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 469
Originally Posted by Cujo665
Never said Envoy had a gun to your head. You said AAG had a gun to your head threatening you.
Got news pal. EVERY regional management everywhere threatens their pilot group during negotiations. If you continue to roll over your entire career you are of no use to anybody and do not understand trade unionism.
Point of fact, when AAG did finally get their second pound of flesh; they were back within 3 months adding LOA after LOA to restore what they’d taken, and more. Why? Because they couldn’t fill their seats. Which is exactly what we told them would happen.
Closing MIA and NY were mistakesback then that we told the replacement vendors couldn’t staff. We Told them we’d be back in NY within a year. It was a year and one month later when it reopened. The Envoy MEC has been much more accurate at seeing the direction the industry would go than any of the managers. They’re still better at it than AAG.
Point of fact, when AAG did finally get their second pound of flesh; they were back within 3 months adding LOA after LOA to restore what they’d taken, and more. Why? Because they couldn’t fill their seats. Which is exactly what we told them would happen.
Closing MIA and NY were mistakesback then that we told the replacement vendors couldn’t staff. We Told them we’d be back in NY within a year. It was a year and one month later when it reopened. The Envoy MEC has been much more accurate at seeing the direction the industry would go than any of the managers. They’re still better at it than AAG.
Again, strategic retreat.
Another post suggested a friendlier more trusting approach with management. I’d just like to ask how many times that your lied to directly to your face by CEO or VP’s does it take before you trust only what they actually do, not what they say? Every time we trusted them since 1994 we got screwed. Go ask some really senior guys who’ve been there a while the full history of AMR-AAG. At Envoy, it’s still very much an AMR style operation.
07-14-2019, 02:45 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,123
Originally Posted by 272922
Fair point.
If the Envoy MEC is so good at seeing the direction of the industry, explain the current state of affair vis a vis PSA and Envoy. Seems like they haven't been able to leverage that insight into anything but "I told you so!!!!!" Meanwhile my seniority keeps climbing about as fast as my pay rate.....
Again, strategic retreat.
I said "good relationship." How we got there was the PSA MEC passing a No Confidence Resolution in senior management that resulted in our DO being sent back to PDT and our VP of Flight Ops being "retired," and ultimately gaining a new VP whom I've been told the TSA pilot group would love to have back.
If the Envoy MEC is so good at seeing the direction of the industry, explain the current state of affair vis a vis PSA and Envoy. Seems like they haven't been able to leverage that insight into anything but "I told you so!!!!!" Meanwhile my seniority keeps climbing about as fast as my pay rate.....
Again, strategic retreat.
I said "good relationship." How we got there was the PSA MEC passing a No Confidence Resolution in senior management that resulted in our DO being sent back to PDT and our VP of Flight Ops being "retired," and ultimately gaining a new VP whom I've been told the TSA pilot group would love to have back.
He promoted Wilson to VP of Flight Ops and every manager we identified as an obstructionist to collaborative team building was not only retained, but promoted.
Please don’t think your PSA leaders are anything like Envoys. Yours apparently have at least some basic ethics.
Last edited by Cujo665; 07-14-2019 at 03:02 PM.
07-14-2019, 03:48 PM
#36
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Pawn
Posts: 1,138
Originally Posted by DoNoHarm
This. This above is the Envoy mentality, and the reason that Envoy is the way that it is right now. The gains would not have happened in 2013 and PSA would have been shut down. You take as much as you can, when you can, and move on to fight again.
Envoy pilots did not take the free money that was being given out a couple months ago...how has that worked out for them? Did they win?
Envoy pilots did not take the free money that was being given out a couple months ago...how has that worked out for them? Did they win?
07-14-2019, 04:00 PM
#37
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Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,649
Originally Posted by MD-11Loader
The “free money” that was being passed out left 60% of our captains paid less $7/he than a PSA captain flying the same size airplane. That’s simply unacceptable. They can keep their charity gift. I am not going to settle for less total compensation than the usurpers in DAY got.
07-14-2019, 07:23 PM
#38
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Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 1,609
Originally Posted by Urban achiever
Awesome write up, and explains the hatred of envoy vs psa. Yikes... with that being said, all those that voted yes to the 900s that were at PSA in 2013 are no longer there.
Disclaimer: the following is from memory and what has been told to me by a former chief pilot and union members that have already flowed to AA, and friends that were at PSA prior to 2013.
The merger of AA/USAIR was being held up by PSA. Initially they did refuse, but were warned that if they refused the planes they would be liquidated, and the 600 pilots at the time would be without jobs in a months time. They were faced with a choice. Accept concessions, get planes, and grow... or disappear. Maybe it was a bluff but more than 50% of the pilot group didn’t want to find out if they were bluffing just for a few extra $$$ when the planes meant immediate growth and movement.
Now I’m sure there’s plenty more to the story but hopefully this fills in some gaps from the other side. For what it’s worth, after the failed AIP, everyone at PSA is rooting for you guys.
Disclaimer: the following is from memory and what has been told to me by a former chief pilot and union members that have already flowed to AA, and friends that were at PSA prior to 2013.
The merger of AA/USAIR was being held up by PSA. Initially they did refuse, but were warned that if they refused the planes they would be liquidated, and the 600 pilots at the time would be without jobs in a months time. They were faced with a choice. Accept concessions, get planes, and grow... or disappear. Maybe it was a bluff but more than 50% of the pilot group didn’t want to find out if they were bluffing just for a few extra $$$ when the planes meant immediate growth and movement.
Now I’m sure there’s plenty more to the story but hopefully this fills in some gaps from the other side. For what it’s worth, after the failed AIP, everyone at PSA is rooting for you guys.
07-14-2019, 07:44 PM
#39
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Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 469
Originally Posted by Pedro4President
I don’t know about everyone else but I have no qualms with the pilots that voted or couldn’t vote. I get the position they were in during the vote. My frustration is with the pilots that chose to go there after the vote and especially those that chose PSA when they announced Envoy’s planes were going to PSA. Those are the ones that undercut everyone and what makes whipsawwing the pilot group so destructive.
So destructive...….
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