You're not wrong but what happens when the flow stops, we're stuck at that. Also some lifers have been here since the 80s, more than 7 years.

And most of them thought they’d be at AA in 5 years just like today’s NHs.

If the company didn’t think there was a chance we could have 12 year CAs again, they’d happily give those imaginary pilots a raise. The fact that they won’t is telling.

No harm, no foul. We all have to look in the mirror from time to time. Stuff like this comes from frustration. You wouldn't have so much passion about it if you hadn't poured so much into it.

I'm late to this issue, and not an Envoy Employee...but what keeps most folks at Envoy after say 5-6 years? I know it's obviously "the flow"....but what makes a person think they "have to" wait for the flow? Most there seem motivated, well trained, skilled, etc. I can see the guy without a degree hanging on, or something that would keep them otherwise less competitive...but I wouldn't think that's most people.

I don’t have any factual statistics, but only a very few captains I flew with early on had active, recently updated apps anywhere. I think a number do not have bachelors degrees. I think a larger group of the newer, FOs that are older have degrees and also less time so are more motivated to move on. Conversely, I think a lot of these young cadets that don’t have a degree would rather spend four extra years at Envoy INSTEAD of college and see the flow as a means to an ends.

And yes, I know we do get some of the UND and ERAU grads that are cadets.

Worth remembering that the flow is a management tool. They get a boost in hiring and retention. The company offers this for their benefit alone. The fact that we might benefit isn't really their concern. If big hiring numbers and increased retention negate the need to raise wages and improve work rules for the pilots, then the tool was successful.

The point went right over your head, which is that come Jan 1 when the additional raise from the last Republic COA kicks in, some one with just 3 years seniority at Republic will make more then anybody at Envoy. Plus most of those Republic CAs will move on too by 7 years.

What I am saying is that even with the additional benefit of flow, you guys are still getting hosed by management.

As we said long ago, as the shortage worsens, the flow will be of less and less value.

We get it bro. Compass is the bee’s knees and flow sucks. How bout this...if you went to Compass, be happy with it or leave. If you went to Envoy, be happy with it or leave. These arguments of my regional is better than your regional because of XYZ are a joke. They’re all regionals when it’s all said and done with.

I agree
 

Will send some of you to work for other “regionals” for one week and you’ll be coming back to Envoy begging for your position back

Care to elaborate on why? What does Envoy have that others don’t that would make someone “beg” to come back?

Nope it didn’t man. I am fully aware of the serious lack of pay here at Envoy on multiple fronts.

1. We lack in hard pay. (Hourly rate)
2. We lack in average day pay. (This is by far the biggest separator.)
3. We lack in soft pay. Flight hours vs credit hours.

I didn’t mean to take away from your point so I’ll add to it. If the company and union negotiated flow away how would that make everyone feel??

To be honest if we didn’t have flow I’d probably be at Spirit right now but I’m getting ready to flow this spring!

I’m not pushing Compass, I’m simply pointing out that the purpose of flow is to staff the regional and save money for the mainline. I suppose if you need it for any of a variety of reasons, no college degree, multiple training failures, etc., it may serve the purpose of some people in the pilot pool, giving them a chance they would otherwise be unlikely to get. Like working for Mesa, it is actually some folks best chance. But for the vast majority of pilots, particularly in the current hiring environment, it’s more of a speed bump on your path to success than it is an expressway. Certainly some people will find it more comfortable, the old tortoise vs hare thing, but electing to take that route and then *****ing about it because you didn’t anticipate the consequence is unfortunate. And *****ing about newbies being about to make the same mistake you did - to the newbies - is really unfair.

Newbies ought to get both sides of the story, good AND bad about flow. They are only going to get one side from management because management knows damn well it BENEFITS management. Where are they going to get the other side if not from their fellow pilots?

I didn’t get into this conversation to push any one regional over the other, or to measure comparative length or girth of parts of our anatomies, I got into it because this thread was TELLING POTENTIAL NEW HIRES THEY WERE THE PROBLEM. That’s just wrong on so many levels from a moral standpoint

But the OP was right that as long as the newbies keep coming management isn’t going to see the need to raise pay. So what is YOUR gripe about potential newbies getting BOTH sides of the story? So they can make a better educated decision on the pros AND CONS of flow?

Because you can be pretty damn sure that the recruiters, Envoy recruiters, Compass recruiters, and every other recruiter, is pretty much going to just give them managements side of the story. That is, after all, what they get paid to do.

And you are right, they ARE all regionals, where you do basically the same job as mainline for a fraction of the salary. But hate the game, not the players, and particularly not the newbie players who need mentoring far more than they need condemnation.

Who offers student loan repayment?

Typically employers who give money in exchange for labor.

Most, if not all of the regionals have some form of student loan repayment.

What’s the cutoff date? What’s your DOH? I’m just trying to gauge exactly who the “problem” folks are because if you ask the lifers it’s everyone hired after the bankruptcy.

If you bothered to read past that post, I admitted my mistake and apologized not once but twice. I had a moment of frustration that I incorrectly took out on these boards. My DOH is post bankruptcy.

It’s not just the new hires coming in. It’s also the captains not leaving.
If captains start going elsewhere en masse, we would get new rates tomorrow.

Might not be a bad idea to start a board letting everyone know where we've been getting interviews and how they went. Could provide some useful info and would let others who read the boards know we aren't flow slaves.

100 CA PRIA requests wouldn't hurt either.

That’s true actually!

Thanks, I didn’t know this.