Coming To Envoy Now Makes You The Problem
07-16-2019, 06:12 PM
#11
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,523
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
LOL! Blame new hires at a regional for your current working conditions under a current already established during your time. Airline industry newbie 
07-16-2019, 06:19 PM
#12
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,656
Originally Posted by bigtime209
You're not wrong. The guys blaming the new hires are the guys that came here not that long ago with the same exact contract in place with the same complaining on this forum about this management team. The only thing that's changed are things at other airlines.
Now, new hires are actually stalling improvement.
I will admit my original post was a bit dramatic, had a momentary act of unbridled frustration. I don’t honestly think new hires should be drawn and quartered. However I felt the need to draw a line in the sand else risk never knowing when we stepped over it.
My apologies if i offended.
07-16-2019, 06:21 PM
#13
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Joined APC: Feb 2018
Position: Resigned
Posts: 1,547
Well, the company isn’t saying that raises are contingent on people from a year+ ago leaving. They’re saying that raises are contingent new hires drying up. Meanwhile, they’re firing people already on property every month for *****ing about the job publicly on social media. You know, like we do here. Don’t think they care if we leave. They’d probably be happy to replace us all with enthusiastic cadets whose parents would pay for them to be able to fly the 175.
07-16-2019, 07:38 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,729
Originally Posted by Cyio
It has become clear, based off the communications we are receiving, that new pilots coming to Envoy are indeed the cause of the company not increasing benefits to us.
It needs to be said, any pilot coming to this company from this point forward, is the reason for the delay and needs to own that they are part of the problem. You may have your reasons for coming here, you may have made an agreement, but at the end of the day, a deal with the devil is just that. You can justify it all you want, but you are actively choosing to slow down, if not stop, the betterment of 2300+ pilots and their families.
If we keep filling classes with 30+ people, it will be a cold day in hell before anything gets done. The union likes to say that not signing the AIP will hurt recruitment, well it doesn't seem to be doing anything as of yet, because people keep coming to class.
The union pilots working in recruitment, you too are the problem. Every person you get to come here is directly hurting your fellow pilots, not to mention the pilot you are getting to sign on the dotted line. You are locking these pilots into a contract that they won't be able to get out of, locking them into a system that manipulates their employees and locking them into a pay/benefit structure that is below industry standard.
It needs to be said, any pilot coming to this company from this point forward, is the reason for the delay and needs to own that they are part of the problem. You may have your reasons for coming here, you may have made an agreement, but at the end of the day, a deal with the devil is just that. You can justify it all you want, but you are actively choosing to slow down, if not stop, the betterment of 2300+ pilots and their families.
If we keep filling classes with 30+ people, it will be a cold day in hell before anything gets done. The union likes to say that not signing the AIP will hurt recruitment, well it doesn't seem to be doing anything as of yet, because people keep coming to class.
The union pilots working in recruitment, you too are the problem. Every person you get to come here is directly hurting your fellow pilots, not to mention the pilot you are getting to sign on the dotted line. You are locking these pilots into a contract that they won't be able to get out of, locking them into a system that manipulates their employees and locking them into a pay/benefit structure that is below industry standard.
07-17-2019, 08:58 AM
#16
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Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 467
Originally Posted by LowvalueFO
Tell that your union who seems to refuse any of that for various reason ...
Because they will come out it’s a lawsuit that we will lose. I’d be more upset if management did NOT express their desire to continue their talks, so we just have to be patient. From what I’ve heard is performing the way we are (we are still the highest performing WO, check airportal) we need to give them reasons why to give us the raises by action and performance. We have little leverage being WO so to compare ourselves to Spirit or Frontier and what they did is NOT applicable to us.
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07-17-2019, 09:36 AM
#17
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,501
Originally Posted by UncreativeUser
We have little leverage being WO ....
I guess the promise of flow sort of contributes to a feeling of helplessness and dependency. Sort of a ‘they own me’ sort of attitude.
You know, plenty of people at regionals without flow get on at Legacies and majors, and it doesn’t take them ten years to do it either.
Do you have any apps out - with anybody? Are you even exploring other options?
That’s not illegal under the RLA you know. And the hiring picture is as favorable as it has been for a long long time.
07-17-2019, 09:44 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 467
Originally Posted by Excargodog
What kind of nonsense is this? You have the same leverage every employee group has, YOU ARE MAKING MONEY FOR THEM. At least you are if they aren’t lying on their SEC filings.
I guess the promise of flow sort of contributes to a feeling of helplessness and dependency. Sort of a ‘they own me’ sort of attitude.
You know, plenty of people at regionals without flow get on at Legacies and majors, and it doesn’t take them ten years to do it either.
Do you have any apps out - with anybody? Are you even exploring other options. That’s not illegal under the RLA you know. And the hiring picture is as favorable as it has been for a long long time.
I guess the promise of flow sort of contributes to a feeling of helplessness and dependency. Sort of a ‘they own me’ sort of attitude.
You know, plenty of people at regionals without flow get on at Legacies and majors, and it doesn’t take them ten years to do it either.
Do you have any apps out - with anybody? Are you even exploring other options. That’s not illegal under the RLA you know. And the hiring picture is as favorable as it has been for a long long time.
Yes, I have my apps out, I’m not like 90% of the pilot group here waiting on the flow, it’s in my back pocket.
I think you’re at Compass so I’m not sure if things are different over there with these situations, but what kind of leverage does a WO have especially when we get our flight files pre picked for us by our parent companies? They have complete control, and that’s what big companies typically want. Not trying to sound like a defeatist if that’s how that coming off, but it’s honestly kinda laughable to be comparing ourselves to LCC’s/ Majors when Spirit got their asses handed to them and got smacked with a lawsuit. In fact, AA just WON their lawsuit against the mechanics, so they got smacked with a lawsuit.
Like I said, I’d be more upset if management straight up walked away but they have recognized that the pilot group should get a raise so at this point it’s an extremely annoying waiting game and let the 2 sides figure it out.
What are your thoughts?
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07-17-2019, 10:34 AM
#19
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Joined APC: Sep 2010
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by Cyio
Yes and no. The people coming in a couple years ago actually improved conditions for those already here. All those new hires allowed the 8 years FOs a chance to upgrade and the flow to kick in.
Now, new hires are actually stalling improvement.
I will admit my original post was a bit dramatic, had a momentary act of unbridled frustration. I don’t honestly think new hires should be drawn and quartered. However I felt the need to draw a line in the sand else risk never knowing when we stepped over it.
My apologies if i offended.
Now, new hires are actually stalling improvement.
I will admit my original post was a bit dramatic, had a momentary act of unbridled frustration. I don’t honestly think new hires should be drawn and quartered. However I felt the need to draw a line in the sand else risk never knowing when we stepped over it.
My apologies if i offended.
I would disagree, those of us that were here didn't see many improvements. We weren't the ones getting the big bucks thrown at us, or student loan repayment. The company was only benefiting the new hires. Just like today, if the new hires weren't coming in their only other option was to increase improvements for everyone on property.
So you are just as much the problem as a new hire today. Like someone already stated...why don't you lead by example and resign?
07-17-2019, 11:31 AM
#20
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,656
Originally Posted by wiz5422
I would disagree, those of us that were here didn't see many improvements. We weren't the ones getting the big bucks thrown at us, or student loan repayment. The company was only benefiting the new hires. Just like today, if the new hires weren't coming in their only other option was to increase improvements for everyone on property.
So you are just as much the problem as a new hire today. Like someone already stated...why don't you lead by example and resign?
So you are just as much the problem as a new hire today. Like someone already stated...why don't you lead by example and resign?
Coming to a new airline fresh is different than leaving one 3+ years in so your lead by example doesn’t even make sense.
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