Pros and cons
 

Going to Envoy and I wanna know what are the pros and cons of working there

Pros:
1. Not THE best, but near the best pay in the regional business at the moment.

2. Flow to American in your back pocket, should take anywhere from 5-10 years but it’s there if you need it. Don’t rely on it.

3. Commutable bases and a good commuting policy with 6 mulligans a year and 4 hotels per month. Lot of regionals don’t offer commuter hotels.

Cons:
1. The relationship between the pilot group and the management is constantly pretty sour. Management can be really conniving.

2. Reserve rules aren’t great.

3. You’ll probably sit for a while once you get to the middle of the reserve list as an FO, especially in ORD or LGA.


The pros outweigh the cons in my book.
A lot depends on where you live.

For a South Florida native, what’s people’s opinion between Envoy or Republic? Solids choices as far as regionals go

If ever traveling through one of the Envoy bases & you see Envoy pilots speak to them. You’ll get the best sense of reality and feedback in person, on a more detailed level. Speak to a few. That’s how it use to be done back in the days before web boards filled with recruiters, company cheerleaders, never happy grunts, complainers, union helpers, line check airmen’s, sim instructors or their best friends and alter egos.

Happy hunting. May the odds be in your favor.

i'm not sure how miami is on the republic side, but Envoy has only a very small base there, and it is extremely senior. Republic keeps getting the better (and growing ) share of our regional flying in NY and, i believe MIA.

Pros and cons.... Let me explain Envoy to you in a way that might make sense and also help you understand everyone’s comments.

So when people tell you about Envoy and say it’s great or horrible believe them because that is their experience. Envoy has 4 bases and 3 ( soon to be 2) aircraft and depending on date of hire and base they will have completely different experiences. A pilot hired in early 2017 that went to ORD 145 held a line pretty much out of training. At one point in the spring of 2017 there were more lines than FOs in Chicago. Fast forward to fall/winter of 2017 and the reserve list in ORD was over 160 pilots. All of them fighting to fly and build time. Same plane and base but two drastically different experiences in less than a year. From their in the Spring of 18 those pilots were like I’m getting out of here and headed to DFW well so did EVERYONE else and bam now DFW is over staffed and people are stuck on reserve but line holders are at least able to drop stuff now. Pilots hired into the 175 seem to have a pretty predictable path from training to holding a line. So when someone tells you about how Envoy is the worst and someone else tells you how awesome it is then believe both of them. Also, view the pros and cons arguments as you have to get through the cons to get to the pros. It’s going to take a while for you my south Florida friend to get to the pros unless you live within driving distance to MIA.

Couldn’t have put it better myself. Had a buddy that got hired to 145 ORD back in the spring of ‘16, had to do a part 121 checkride and he was stuck on RSV hating the commute and QOL.

I got hired Summer of ‘16 and had a paid vacation waiting for the 175 DFW. One month of RSV and had a great time.

It’s all about timing and luck. Unfortunately you don’t know how the dice will roll until you get in class and pick your equipment and base.

This is all very accurate information and like said, it really all depends on the luck of the draw whether you will win or lose here. Either way, the flow is a nice backup, your paychecks come on time, health insurance is average and I have been told our dental is better than most. Generally if you don't abuse the systems here, you will be left alone and not hassled over the occasional sick calls.

The commuter policy is nice, however I would almost always suggest to live in base if you can.

With all of that, management and the pilot group have a lot of animosity towards each other although I think that will start to improve once the remaining PP's flow too AA. Reserve rules have some glaring negatives that really do need to be fixed.

All in all, while I am often a pilot advocate on these boards, I have had a pretty good run here at Envoy. I was lucky with bonuses, aircraft, upgrade and seniority. Managment and I have not had any interactions beyond the occasional email for a commuter/sick call.

Your mileage will vary.

You make a very valid point. Wait 3 aircraft are they still flying the CRJ?

For all intents and purposes, no.

This is a fantastic and accurate portrayal of life at envoy. I was the above late 2017 hire that got stuck in ORD then stuck on RSV in Dallas. Had 150 hours on the books on my 12 month anniversary with the company. It was rough but will make the captain upgrade a bit sweeter. I can hold any base any equipment.

Any idea of when you will get called in for the flow ?? Also is envoy still forcing a contract for new hireS.

Really good points that I didn’t consider! The main reason I ask is because I live driving distance to MIA and would like to avoid a commute if possible.

With that said, I was also rooms that the 175 is QOL friendly and that’s the A/C to be on and not because it’s the shiny jet with the engine under its wings. If that was the case, would it be better to bid the 175 and just commute? I figured that the 145 isn’t so bad if you live in base. Just trying to do my homework is all.

As long as we’re comparing regionals to regionals, majors to majors, legacies to legacies:

Living in base is everything. Nothing else is going to trump that. You live in Miami? Work for an airline with a base in Miami. Bid for the airplane that will get you based in Miami even if you’ll have to commute short term somewhere else.

That said. Envoy’s Miami base is really small (and senior last I checked). I’m not sure Envoy is the best place if you need a Miami base. I don’t fully know Miami situation well because I don’t need to, but I have to think there’s a better option there.

Miami is going to be senior for regionals across the board. Republic is the only other option I’d look at but I think they are senior too.

I’m not an east Coast guy so someone else may have better advice but I’d suggest go to 145LGA then transfer to 145 Miami.

It’s so hard to justify commuting for two years when you could live in base.

Flow is probably about 7 years for a new hire. Also envoy has never forced a contract. If they pay the $5000 for your ATP CTP and you leave before 2 years you must reimburse, which is fair and I think most other regionals do. If you take the bonus then you must sign a repayment agreement that goes down over a 2 year period.

Good luck. If you need the experience, it's a place in which to attain that. If you need to get recurrent after a short hiatus from aviation, it's one of many places in which to do it.

I was hired 13 months ago as a direct entry captain for the latter reason and am leaving in a few days for a major airline. 19 years ago, Comair had better reserve rules and quality of life than ENY does in 2019. In 2001, we did an 89 day ALPA strike, yet the climate was far less abrasive and contentious leading up to the strike than it is here at present day ENY during normal, everyday operations.

ENY's problem is the culture. It's miserable. I have never seen such disdain and contempt between management and the work groups; all work groups. The culture that is present is one propagated down directly from AA and will never change.

If I knew a year ago what I know now, I would have reattained my currency elsewhere. ENY is a miserable place to work, in my opinion.

This is merely my opinion based on 13 months of hand-on observation. There will be those that agree with me and those that do not; to each his own. I would not recommend ENY to anyone.

You also got CA out of ORD on the CRJ, the worst possible setup in this company. Thank god it’s over with next month


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As he said the experience varies wildly. The issues with Direct Entry Captains has been that even though they're obtaining company seniority everyday, their in seat seniority has not moved as rapidly. As FO's who are senior to them continue to upgrade, they are in this period of perpetual reserve until all eligible FO's who are senior to them upgrade. While I do understand that its not pleasant, thats how seniority works (honestly not trying to sound insensitive, I feel your pain). However to make a statement that "I would not recommend ENY to anyone." is simply unfair and unequivocally misguiding as a vast majority of people who come here are brand new FO's in where the aforementioned problem would not exist. Congrats on the new company, where ya headed off to?

if you’re on the outside reading this, notice how no one is arguing that guys damning critique of Envoy’s culture

Exactly.

10 char

I believe he was commenting on the management culture, not his daily seniority based assignments.

I am fully aware and well-versed on seniority, it's intricacies, and functionality. This is by far and away not my first rodeo. I am drawing attention to the overall combative and abrasive AA culture.

The underlying fact I am trying to disclose to those on the outside considering of coming here due to the marketing tactic of 'the flow' is that of the culture. No one that has any fist hand experience of ENY, and has common sense, will argue with me.

Those that interject so as to defend ENY and/or mitigate what real people are saying on here about the real issues are either management trolls or completely oblivious to how a real airline, making real efforts to progress forward in 2019, operates.

Regardless, my name is on here and I don't hide behind a discreet username. If you are currently at ENY and feel like I am way off base, by all means, look me up. I'll buy the coffee and we can chat, face to face. I welcome the debate. Who knows, we possibly can educate one another.

For those on the outside being sold the marketing goods of 'the flow', I highly encourage you to progress with due diligence and research Endeavor and SkyWest. A regional is, always has been, and always will be a regional.

What had you been doing since Comair shutdown in 2012? You have experience with Skywest and Endeavor culture and work rules to compare it to envoy? Or any other regional at all except Comair?

I find it funny you recommend a non union carrier after your experience with comair. Also you talk about the combative and abrasive AA culture, yet Delta shut you guys down for standing up to them. Do you think they’ve changed now? What would be some examples of the AA culture you think is wildly different than other regionals?

For me, eagle has been fine. I went through the bankruptcy and the shrinking. Our pilot group and union thought we had much more power than we did, and the company smacked us into place. It sucked, but that’s capitalism, that’s what the regionals are like without a regional wide union. Regionals grow at the expense of others.

The majority of my career here has been fine. New hires have way more advantages than we had 8 years ago. These sign on bonuses, the overall pay scale, 200 percent OT, commuter hotels, the ipads with digital releases and jepps and mobile cci, training is kinder and easier.

Reserve can suck, that’s the next part of the contract that needs improvement. I wouldn’t write off the airline because of that.

The pays good, the training center is good, the movement here is fast and guaranteed. The flow is great to have in your back pocket, (I and a thousand other pilots at AA are glad to have had it). You have Exactly the same travel benefits as an AA pilot on the whole AA network.

There’s a lot to be said about being a wholly owned when it comes to job security, ala compass unfortunately. I and my class mates haven’t had any real issues with the chief pilots office, which is our management. You also do have a union, which despite the complaining we all do, means a lot, and has saved many a guy his job or gotten it back.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Well, let's see. I was a Check Airmen on the DC10 and 757 for many years, for starters (If you'd like an aviation accolade measuring contest, I am more than up to your challenge and willing to bet I will prevail that contest of logbooks, type ratings, and experience). Then, I took a break from aviation to become a police officer and contribute - rather than watch from the sidelines, since many were being slaughtered along with continuously degraded in the public eye.

I wasn't going to go there but, since you opened that can of worms, okay - here we go. I wouldn't be so quick to enter 'macho' conversation regarding the union and their prowess (lack thereof) at ENY. I'll just leave it at that. You go get yourself an ALPA star pin and we will talk 'union talk' big boy. I'd just leave the union out of this if I were you. Unless you are one of the idiots here that touts on social media about "I want to strike" or "I can't wait to strike"; complete and total moronic thinking. Until you've been through one, you'd never realize the ramifications of such and the desire to make it an utter last resort. So don't bring up nor tell me about union substance. Again, I've got you beat there too. But hey, you're an 8 year ENY tenure (in this hiring climate), you obviously know it all.

Easy there skipper. So you flew for an ACMI? Nice! But you don’t have experience with Skywest, Endeavor or any other regional outside of Comair a decade ago or longer?

Since your rant went off the rails there and I’m a little lost, are you saying you don’t want unions, or you think ours is so weak we might as well not have one? I was bringing it up in regards to you recommending Skywest, which has no union. You see, in my experience here I actually have seen and heard guys who got there job back thanks to the union. This has nothing to do with striking or whatever else you went off about.

I am curious to hear what your actual examples of the company culture being so negative. Can you post any substance instead of stroking yourself while attacking others?

#triggered

*why Envoy management walks all over you guys*

Just bend over and take it boii. We are our worst enemy.

In what sense does reserve suck ? I don't personally really care for flying my ass off if that's the case or not. I don't mind chilling and watching Netflix either lol

There are two types of reserve at Envoy:

Standby, eight hour shift, sitting ready at the airport.

RAP, reserve availability period. 14 hours long, two hour call out.

There is no long call. If you are on reserve, you have to be in domicile, basically bags packed and uniform at hand and ready to go out on a flight that could last through the last day of your reserve sequence.

You can “see” who has been called and how many are between you and getting called, but not always a good indication of how close you are to call out.

If you don’t live in base, you have to be there. Assignments for the next day are confirmed at 1700 central time. For most commuters, this means you have to be commuting before you know for sure if you have a flight, a standby or a RAP and what time that is. You don’t get used for an overnight, you need a place to stay. You have a late shift, you have to check out most places at 1100, so either you’re a vagrant for a few hours or you pay for another night. A lot of uncertainty.

If you live in base, less than about 30-45 minutes from being at the terminal, life is much better.

Reserve is also only guaranteed 11 days a month off. You can not go below eight days a month off, so only three days max you MIGHT can pick up OT and there are restrictions on what time frame you are eligible to pick up OT, so usually slim pickings.

Reserve is what pitchattitude stated above. How much you fly depends on staffing. When I was on reserve for 2 years as an FO I purposely barely flew, lived in base, and it was pretty good. Other bases/ac type have been worked to the bone. I think some things that could be improved are reserve is only 11 days off, so you can have 5 day stretches, which sucks. Also, there’s no bidding “want to fly” vs “don’t want to,” It’s seniority based. Also no long call, that would be nice. Overall, it’s not too bad, but I’d pretty much always prefer a line over reserve.

Wow. That was..... intense.

RAP in NYC (LGA/JFK) has a 3-hour call out and the company used to pay for the first 3 months of hotels (not sure if this has changed).

It hasn't from what I understand. 3 hour call out and 3 months of paid hotel for the days you're on call for people who have recently exited a long term training event (new hires or CA upgrades) still apply from my understanding.

This is my understanding as well. It requires a training event to kick in so a simple base transfer won't do.

#BOHICA

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