Envoy's future
07-13-2014 | 11:18 AM
#2191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,564
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I'm no expert nor do I have a dog in this race...but I'm sure there was something in the contract about extenuating circumstances....therefore not something you ever had to lose....if I'm wrong about there being a provision then I surrender.
07-13-2014 | 11:21 AM
#2192
Does NOT get weekends off
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: ERJ - 145
Maybe we should wait and see what, if anything is being crafted and THEN discuss it's merits and concessions (which there will be some). However there needs to be a proposal in the first place which I am not even certain there will be one. Convincing the MEC the rubber stamp something will take a lot of effort by management - from what we have seen I don't think they will give enough.
07-13-2014 | 11:27 AM
#2193
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Please don't hang yourself over this stupid job. If this job makes your life this miserable, I suggest you quit and get a job that allows you to stay home. You've said a thousand times how much you hate this job. Don't let a stupid job define your life.
07-13-2014 | 11:29 AM
#2194
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Joined: Aug 2013
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You're comparing the very top of Eagle to the very bottom of AA. The contract covered all their pilots, not just the bunch who got numbers. The bottom 70% at Eagle got screwed by that false promise of flowing in 2-4 years. Perhaps you should ask some of them. Our third year pay on our crap bankruptcy contract is above their CA rates.
You're comparing their 8% match to our defined pension (at the time) plus the 401k matching?
I got a check for well over $100k for what was just given up in BK. How did the Numbered guys still at Eagle do? If they got $10k they did well.
You really want to continue this debate about how much better off they'd have been being here 13 years ago, instead of waiting? Our reserve system is still better than their best line, especially at our pay rates. Go ask some of the new guys on reserve, they'll tell you the very worst day here is better than the very best day they ever had at Eagle.
Spin it how you want. They took a bad deal in 97 on false promises. It absolutely worked out for some, but not for the majority. Go ask the 400-500 guys at Envoy that are now too old to flow and recoup the pay if the flow through worked for them. 13 years ago, they'd have come over. There are almost as many who've declined as numbered guys who flowed. I could be off a bit, my Envoy stuff is second hand, so I don't actually know if it's 400-500 declining. It's just what I was told.
You're comparing their 8% match to our defined pension (at the time) plus the 401k matching?
I got a check for well over $100k for what was just given up in BK. How did the Numbered guys still at Eagle do? If they got $10k they did well.
You really want to continue this debate about how much better off they'd have been being here 13 years ago, instead of waiting? Our reserve system is still better than their best line, especially at our pay rates. Go ask some of the new guys on reserve, they'll tell you the very worst day here is better than the very best day they ever had at Eagle.
Spin it how you want. They took a bad deal in 97 on false promises. It absolutely worked out for some, but not for the majority. Go ask the 400-500 guys at Envoy that are now too old to flow and recoup the pay if the flow through worked for them. 13 years ago, they'd have come over. There are almost as many who've declined as numbered guys who flowed. I could be off a bit, my Envoy stuff is second hand, so I don't actually know if it's 400-500 declining. It's just what I was told.
"Our reserve system is still better than their best line, especially at our pay rates. Go ask some of the new guys on reserve, they'll tell you the very worst day here is better than the very best day they ever had at Eagle. "
You lost me there. Not going to debate anymore.
07-13-2014 | 11:34 AM
#2195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,168
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From: Reclined
That is the exact same scenario happening to them now.
RAH just turned down pay rates $20 an hour higher on the same equipment. With all the retirements, none of you will need a flow. It's a nice backup plan, but that's all it should be. Honestly, as the shortage worsens, I'd expect them to increase flow programs all on their own. Does it have value, sure; but not as much as they wish. Especially with so many bailing for nationals and legacies. They aren't leaving for other regionals.
07-13-2014 | 11:48 AM
#2196
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,809
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From: Left
I don't either, it never effected me. The issue I'm highlighting is the company selling a concessionary contract to a pilot group on promises of being at AA in 2-4 years in 97.
That is the exact same scenario happening to them now.
RAH just turned down pay rates $20 an hour higher on the same equipment. With all the retirements, none of you will need a flow. It's a nice backup plan, but that's all it should be. Honestly, as the shortage worsens, I'd expect them to increase flow programs all on their own. Does it have value, sure; but not as much as they wish. Especially with so many bailing for nationals and legacies. They aren't leaving for other regionals.
That is the exact same scenario happening to them now.
RAH just turned down pay rates $20 an hour higher on the same equipment. With all the retirements, none of you will need a flow. It's a nice backup plan, but that's all it should be. Honestly, as the shortage worsens, I'd expect them to increase flow programs all on their own. Does it have value, sure; but not as much as they wish. Especially with so many bailing for nationals and legacies. They aren't leaving for other regionals.
At the end of the day what do the majority of eagle want out of this? What is the absolute minimum that would be acceptable?
Obviously the short answer is: Planes at current contract. That obviously isn't happening or again, there would be no talks in the first place. They would just place the acft at Eagle and call it a day.
I would be willing to bet any proposal would include some variation of 12/4. So what does it take to accept that? Or is that not acceptable at all?
07-13-2014 | 11:52 AM
#2197
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Joined: May 2014
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I think some form of snap backs would have to be in place to accept 12/4 caps and if you intentionally chose not to flow then you'd be capped indefinitely and wouldn't receive the snap back. Not sure how well it would work but seems reasonable that if they absolutely have to have the pay caps and are so sure we won't ever actually reach them then the snap backs shouldn't be an issue!
07-13-2014 | 11:56 AM
#2198
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Joined: Jan 2013
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It was just a figure if speech, I'm not suicidal. My life is perfect outside this god awful career.
07-13-2014 | 11:58 AM
#2199
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Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Left
I think some form of snap backs would have to be in place to accept 12/4 caps and if you intentionally chose not to flow then you'd be capped indefinitely and wouldn't receive the snap back. Not sure how well it would work but seems reasonable that if they absolutely have to have the pay caps and are so sure we won't ever actually reach them then the snap backs shouldn't be an issue!
What would cause a snap back though? If you got a snap back after a certain time without flowing wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of the 12/4?
Would there be a flow down in exchange for flow up? Maybe in the case of a flow down snap backs occur?
07-13-2014 | 12:01 PM
#2200
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Joined: May 2014
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Not sure about the details of how it would all work but they are positive that we'll never hit the pay caps before flowing! So to put their money where their mouth is give us snap backs if the music stops again... Essentially we're already taking all the risk as the flow costs them nothing since they need pilots anyway!
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