Envoy 2.5/6
 

I'm a pipeline instructor starting Envoy in January. I'm pretty stoked about getting started. I've been told during pipeline and in my Envoy interview that they have a 2 1/2 year upgrade and from the date of hire, 6 year flow to AA.

I've been visiting this board recently to get an idea of what to expect and there have been more negative posts regarding the 2 1/2 year upgrades and 6 year flow actually happening.

I'm starting to get a little worried. I am very happy about starting with Envoy as they are my first choice and I believe they are a solid and stable company. But why would they tell us something that isn't going to happen? I understood it to be a done deal. It won't change anything as I'm still obligated to Envoy but I was really planning on upgrading quickly and being in an AA cockpit before I'm 30.

Who has serious numbers that can back this up?

Here's the deal with aviation and I hope you remember this:

Nothing is real until you are sitting in aircraft you are wanting to fly and paychecks are hitting your bank account from the company you want to work for.

Things are VERY fluid in the aviation industry and they can change on a moment's notice. So be flexible and ready to explore all of your options and work toward the hour / experience goals you want to work towards. If the flow happens, great - but I wouldn't hang my hat in the AA crew room before you've even set foot in class at Envoy.

My humble advice is to stay flexible and keep your options open while continuing to work towards your goals. It will save you a lot of sleepless nights.


Cheers.

I think it's true 2.5 to get off reserve and 6 to upgrade with no known number on when you would flow... Probably 30 like you said.

7 for 7 pretty much summed it up. You pays your money, you takes your chances.

Regardless, there will be movement at envoy. How much and how fast is up to AA's hiring numbers and envoy's willingness to let the pilots flow in matching proportion. We've been given a lot of different numbers over the last several months, our union, ENY management and AA management have all put information out. We'll have to see which one turns out to be true.

All that said, I'm not too familiar with the restrictions incurred when accepting the pipeline agreement. If ENY turns out to not be the place you want to be, keep your options open and apply out as soon as the contract allows you to leave without penalty.

You're worried a timeline to upgrade at Envoy and flow to AA isn't a certainty and set in stone to meet your personal goals ?

If that's your outlook, you're in for a sobering ride in this profession. Is every instrument approach certain to result in a landing ?

No one can guarantee you anything in life and any numbers thrown out regarding the future by their very nature can NEVER be backed-up, at least with any certainty. Regarding your hopes and dreams with Envoy, it may result in a perfect approach and grease job landing in the middle of the touchdown zone, a missed approach for return to landing, a diversion or you could hit the approach lights.

You'll know the answer to that concern when you upgrade and when you flow. Airlines have been promising things to pilots since the airmail days and the majority of it is self-serving B.S. The sooner you accept that, the more realistic you're outlook will be. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

Good Luck.

Knock it off Cuj....

Good Luck!

2.5/6 is an estimate (although now I believe they are saying less then 6, I cold be wrong about that though.) I highly doubt anybody ever told you it was a "done deal" as you put it. Even the most optimistic people in the company are never going to say anything is 100% certain.

We don't seem to be having much trouble getting new-hires and we are scheduled to flow over 300 next year alone, so I would say that unless plans drastically change, then 2.5/6 is doable for someone hired today. If plans do drastically change for the worse, then my bet is that the entire industry is undergoing the same troubles (economy, terrorism, raised mandatory retirement age, etc.) If that were the case then I would much rather be hanging my hat for an extended period of time at envoy vs. contract carriers such as Mesa, TSA, Republic, and the like.

There is nothing solid or stable about any regional airline. In some cases, stability is the problem (which is what usually leads to lifers, which is what leads to long upgrade times)

I think Cujo's back.

There are hiring gaps between mid 2008 to mid 2010. Once that gap closes (hopefully this year), the upgrade will go down to 5yr-6yr upgrades). If we get enough hires the 2.5 might happen, but I think it will stabilize at 3.5-4 years.

The 6yr flow, it depends on AA hiring, anyone hired now I could say probably 7 to 8 years. I will be 10yrs in when I flow (if it ever gets to me and if I don't leave to some other place).

Good luck, this is a good company, with good people. We are esceptical due to AMR management lies, so far AAG has follow their word in regards of flows.

The numbers have been posted if you look through the envoy threads. Personally I think a 12 month reserve, 4 year upgrade and a ~ 6 year flow is a more realistic expectation. Like every other regional, envoy will do as much flying as they can staff, so reserve time and upgrade times are dependent on new hire numbers. No matter your choice, it's always a risk. Many former Eastern, Piemont ( original), Comair and ASA pilots can tell you about that.

This seems pretty realistic to me. They will have to get pilots in the door though to be able to staff it the way they want to, of course.

The other thing to keep in mind about the flow is, it's just one opportunity for a pilot. You can go to XYZ regional and your only option to move on is apply, get lucky enough to be called for an interview and then be amoung the ~ 70% that are offered a job. You have no other options. As an envoy pilot, you could ( and should ) apply elsewhere including AA but you still have flow to fall back on.

How many people are in your new hire classes. Last I heard was 1 guy showed up, but that was this past feb or jan.


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its the holidays

Wait til Envoy starts 1.5/3.5.

Yes, it will happen.

I thought we were down to 1.4325/3.32764, and that's guaranteed.:cool:

I heard 2 classes per month currently, though there is typically just one in December. Last class had 13, next one suppose to have 25. I think our days of struggling to hire are over for the time being. Seems like lot of pipeline guys are hitting their hours and filling up classes.

To the OP, I don't know if 2.5/6 will happen for you. What I do know is that I'm a 2013 hire and the number of pilots between my seniority and a new hire like you, about 200 or so, is a relatively small number. Also, there's only about 200 numbers between me and a 2010 hire (the last protected pilot, more on that later). Our difficulty hiring the past few years means the bottom of our list is really spaced out.

The reason this is important is because of the flow language. Our flow is designed to decrease over time. There's currently 4 flow groups, the 824, protected pilots, pre date of signing (Dec 2014), and post date of signing. The closer you are to the front of your group, it can greatly change the amount of time you will take to flow. Getting towards the front of the line for the post date of signing is going to help you a lot.


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I assume you meant 2011, as it's October 2011 hire is the last of the protected pilots

Do you instruct at ATP? Also does anyone have information regarding future pilots hired at Envoy? Will the flow still be offered in a few years to new hires?

The contract is good until 2024.

Yeah, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.


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