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-   -   How many is excessive? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/expressjet/119765-how-many-excessive.html)

ghostrider717 02-04-2019 08:09 PM

How many is excessive?
 
I was thinking of jumping ship and applying to you guys since I’m already typed in the ejet but I see it states that you wont take anyone with excessive Checkride failures. I was wondering if any of you know what is considered “excessive”? I had two busts back in 2000 and then took 13 yrs off from flying then busted again when I came back in 2013. I’m thinking 3 is too many, even if 2 of them where 19 years ago.

Blackhawk 02-04-2019 08:16 PM


Originally Posted by ghostrider717 (Post 2757045)
I was thinking of jumping ship and applying to you guys since I’m already typed in the ejet but I see it states that you wont take anyone with excessive Checkride failures. I was wondering if any of you know what is considered “excessive”? I had two busts back in 2000 and then took 13 yrs off from flying then busted again when I came back in 2013. I’m thinking 3 is too many, even if 2 of them where 19 years ago.

You won't know unless you ask.

PhantomHawk 02-04-2019 09:15 PM

I know people hired by the Majors with more than 3 checkride failures. You should apply, and focus on explaining what happened if you get an interview. Take ownership of the failure, explain what you learned from it, and how you are a better pilot now because of it.

afterburn81 02-05-2019 05:30 AM

Is it 3 “Check Rides” or “Training” failures? They always ask those questions differently. I’m assuming any practical test bust bears more weight that a KV or oral.

PhantomHawk 02-05-2019 02:35 PM


Originally Posted by afterburn81 (Post 2757163)
Is it 3 “Check Rides” or “Training” failures? They always ask those questions differently. I’m assuming any practical test bust bears more weight that a KV or oral.

For the purposes of my example, they were all practicals. However, a busted KV is bad news, too.

Point is, it’s not a roadblock, necessarily......but it does increase your workload when it comes to overcoming that awkward moment in the interview. Because they WILL ask about it.

itsmytime 02-05-2019 05:52 PM


Originally Posted by PhantomHawk (Post 2757603)
For the purposes of my example, they were all practicals. However, a busted KV is bad news, too.

Point is, it’s not a roadblock, necessarily......but it does increase your workload when it comes to overcoming that awkward moment in the interview. Because they WILL ask about it.

What’s a KV?

Arliss 02-05-2019 06:15 PM


Originally Posted by itsmytime (Post 2757698)
What’s a KV?

Knowledge validation. Basically the systems oral in AQP training.

dera 02-05-2019 08:07 PM


Originally Posted by Arliss (Post 2757710)
Knowledge validation. Basically the systems oral in AQP training.

Depends on the implementation.
In our shop, the KV is a computer based test which you can take as many times as you want, so you can't really "bust" it.
SV/PV is where you do your oral.

So, not all AQPs are alike.

Parma3980 02-06-2019 03:35 PM

One in a career is acceptable any more than one is excessive If there wasn’t a pilot shortage you would be a career flight instructor

da42pilot 02-06-2019 03:41 PM


Originally Posted by dera (Post 2757763)
Depends on the implementation.
In our shop, the KV is a computer based test which you can take as many times as you want, so you can't really "bust" it.
SV/PV is where you do your oral.

So, not all AQPs are alike.

Where do you work? I’ve never heard of that before. Not doubting just surprised that’s possible.

PhantomHawk 02-06-2019 03:53 PM


Originally Posted by Parma3980 (Post 2758518)
One in a career is acceptable any more than one is excessive If there wasn’t a pilot shortage you would be a career flight instructor

There isn’t a pilot shortage at the Legacy level. They can still afford to be picky.

dera 02-06-2019 08:56 PM


Originally Posted by da42pilot (Post 2758525)
Where do you work? I’ve never heard of that before. Not doubting just surprised that’s possible.

Envoy, that's how it's done here. KV is a computer based test, SV/PV is your oral including systems and FM1.

calmwinds 02-07-2019 03:12 AM


Originally Posted by dera (Post 2758719)
Envoy, that's how it's done here. KV is a computer based test, SV/PV is your oral including systems and FM1.

Each AQP program is different. Some even exclude maneuvers like steep turns in the MV checkride. Some just need steep turns trained to proficiency. Their MV focuses on manuevers an airline pilot does.

Xjet can’t be on a AQP for the Ejets yet for initial, right?

dera 02-07-2019 11:17 AM


Originally Posted by calmwinds (Post 2758767)
Each AQP program is different. Some even exclude maneuvers like steep turns in the MV checkride. Some just need steep turns trained to proficiency. Their MV focuses on manuevers an airline pilot does.

Xjet can’t be on a AQP for the Ejets yet for initial, right?

We don't do steep turns at all actually.
Not a maneuver you do in a transport category jet, so why bother.

terks43 02-07-2019 11:24 AM


Originally Posted by dera (Post 2759196)
We don't do steep turns at all actually.
Not a maneuver you do in a transport category jet, so why bother.

Until it all hits the fan and you find yourself face to face with an immovable object...

dera 02-07-2019 11:32 AM


Originally Posted by terks43 (Post 2759206)
Until it all hits the fan and you find yourself face to face with an immovable object...

Given that history does not know of a single event when a steep turn would've helped, I'm not sure if it's really relevant training.

calmwinds 02-07-2019 11:33 AM


Originally Posted by dera (Post 2759196)
We don't do steep turns at all actually.
Not a maneuver you do in a transport category jet, so why bother.

Are you speaking for your Ejet program? Is it AQP?

dera 02-07-2019 11:35 AM


Originally Posted by calmwinds (Post 2759214)
Are you speaking for your Ejet program? Is it AQP?

Yes, and yes.

watch 02-07-2019 02:43 PM

What “manuevers” do you do if not even steep turns?

flynd94 02-07-2019 05:41 PM


Originally Posted by watch (Post 2759383)
What “manuevers” do you do if not even steep turns?

Stalls (all configurations), UA attitude recovery, upset recovery, wind shear, TCAS, EGPWS to name a few

watch 02-07-2019 06:20 PM

Thanks, I’m new to this

dera 02-07-2019 09:27 PM


Originally Posted by watch (Post 2759383)
What “manuevers” do you do if not even steep turns?

V1 cut, SE go-around, Cat II approaches to landing and missed, SE approaches, you know, the important and relevant stuff.

Blackhawk 02-08-2019 01:19 PM

I haven’t heard before of a program where basic ATP maneuvers aren’t part of the AQP, but I guess that could be the case. V1 cuts aren’t part of the day to day 121 flying but they are still usually something that is tested. You don’t normally do stall recovery as well, but that is also part of most training programs.

Punkpilot48 02-10-2019 08:57 PM


Originally Posted by Blackhawk (Post 2760079)
I haven’t heard before of a program where basic ATP maneuvers aren’t part of the AQP, but I guess that could be the case. V1 cuts aren’t part of the day to day 121 flying but they are still usually something that is tested. You don’t normally do stall recovery as well, but that is also part of most training programs.

You aren’t tested on stalls on the airbus at some airlines.

Blackhawk 02-15-2019 01:49 AM


Originally Posted by Punkpilot48 (Post 2761521)
You aren’t tested on stalls on the airbus at some airlines.

I’m not sure how that is possible as it’s a requirement of 121.419. Sounds like another Colgan 3407 looking for a place to happen.

Punkpilot48 02-15-2019 10:58 AM


Originally Posted by Blackhawk (Post 2764567)
I’m not sure how that is possible as it’s a requirement of 121.419. Sounds like another Colgan 3407 looking for a place to happen.

United airlines. Hardly the next colgan.

It’s a check the box item in training. The plane doesn’t stall. You have to have multiple system failures before it can happen. No stalls in any of the 3 validation rides.

CanWeGetTheLeft 02-15-2019 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by Punkpilot48 (Post 2764821)
United airlines. Hardly the next colgan.

It’s a check the box item in training. The plane doesn’t stall. You have to have multiple system failures before it can happen. No stalls in any of the 3 validation rides.

Yeah, it’s not like there’s ever been a major accident with everyone killed because a modern airbus stalled.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

I’m not attacking UAL or their training, everyone I know that has gone through it says it’s exceptional. But the Airbus can stall, and it has happened.

Punkpilot48 02-15-2019 12:45 PM


Originally Posted by CanWeGetTheLeft (Post 2764829)
Yeah, it’s not like there’s ever been a major accident with everyone killed because a modern airbus stalled.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

I’m not attacking UAL or their training, everyone I know that has gone through it says it’s exceptional. But the Airbus can stall, and it has happened.

Obviously it can! But like I said multiple system failures.

Blackhawk 02-16-2019 05:47 PM


Originally Posted by Punkpilot48 (Post 2764821)
United airlines. Hardly the next colgan.

It’s a check the box item in training. The plane doesn’t stall. You have to have multiple system failures before it can happen. No stalls in any of the 3 validation rides.

I see now what you wrote. “Tested” and I assumed trained.
Still, any airline can have an accident. Taking to friends who are in training departments at majors one of the things that scares them is the lack of breadth among many new hires. Many have never even been a PIC under 121.

dera 02-16-2019 08:47 PM


Originally Posted by Blackhawk (Post 2765555)
I see now what you wrote. “Tested” and I assumed trained.
Still, any airline can have an accident. Taking to friends who are in training departments at majors one of the things that scares them is the lack of breadth among many new hires. Many have never even been a PIC under 121.

The many you refer to are military or minority.
Such is life that they get preference over more qualified candidates.

MooseAg03 02-18-2019 10:26 AM


Originally Posted by dera (Post 2765594)
The many you refer to are military or minority.

Such is life that they get preference over more qualified candidates.



More qualified? Flying CONUS missions anywhere in the US is the easiest thing we do. Guys like me may not have as many hours or as much turbine PIC, but I’ve flown 4 different aircraft, on 5 continents and have hundreds of combat sorties. I’ve heard it around here many times before, the airlines like military because we are a known quantity and have proven to be trainable.


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Stuff11 02-18-2019 01:32 PM

"Excessive" is a loose term on purpose. Whats important is:


1. Accepting the failure and not making excuses (Ex: the DPE was out to get me, my CFI never taught me that. etc...)
2. What did you learn from the failure?
3. What did you do to better yourself after the failure./ What kind of flying have you done since the failure


And of course what check rides the failure happened on.


For XJT its a moving target, they're big on what you learned versus a hard 3 strikes your out.


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