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Old 07-17-2017, 07:51 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
Today's recommended reading is page 515 of our CBA
I read that. It kind of makes my point. That fact that such an open ended, milquetoast LOA even made it into this contract completely underscores the crux of the problem. UNSAT!!
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:49 AM   #42
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Perhaps you could enlighten us by describing what goes on during build week. What was your schedule like? What time did you begin each day, and what time did you end? Where did you physically work? How much time was on ALPA property, and how much on FedEx property? Where did you eat? Who paid your trip removal? Who paid for your meals? Where did commuters stay? Who paid?

Were you ever able to draw a line in the sand on any issue to the point of delaying the publishing of a bid period package, or was the deadline always the deadline? Were you ever able to convince The Company to change a pairing to a less onerous schedule if it was going to cost The Company more money, or were the only solutions acceptable those which cost the same or less? How many disputed pairing disputes were decided by the final arbitrator in our favor?
Apart from the scheduling subject matter expertise, what experience did you gain on the PSIT which you believe would make you a better CBA negotiator?

If the goings on of the PSIT are so secretive that nobody has a clue what goes on there, isn't that a problem? Well, provide the solution. Tell us all about it.

.
I've often wondered when someone doing ALPA work is being paid with our dues money - is he "volunteering"? My definition of "volunteering" means you're working without compensation. As in pro bono. If someone on the SIG is being paid with our union dues; brother, he ain't volunteering. He's being paid to do a job. And that's fine by me, just don't claim you're "volunteering" your time. But if being paid by the union instead of the company is considered volunteering, where do I sign up? Heck, I'll "volunteer" until I'm 80 years old. Maybe we can all say we are volunteering our time to Fedex Copration because we have nothing better to do. We aren't compensated employees, we're volunteers!

I've also wondered about the PSIT "volunteers". Those volunteers are paid 12 hours per month (or so I'm told from a reliable source). That's $3,600 per month to make the same dang lines every month (for a wide body captain anyways). That's our dues money being spent on a "volunteer". Will they not work for only 6 hours per month? Can we find "volunteers" willing to do that work for only 6 hours of pay? And where is the posting from our union for PSIT members? Oh yes, there isn't one. It's the good 'ol boy system of "volunteerism".

So my hat's off to the guys and gals that actually work on our behalf without pay. Too bad the union doesn't have a monthly report showing who's being paid with our dues money and how much they are being paid to "volunteer". Also a report of who's actually volunteering so we can collectively say "thank you" for working pro bono.
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:16 AM   #43
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Thanks for volunteering, trashhauler. I do personally appreciate that. My goal in my previous post was not to denigrate the efforts of the SIG and if I came across that way, I apologize to you and the other members, past and present.

I was being critical of those specific NC members who brought us this POS who happened to be prior SIG members and I don't apologize for that. You're right, I have no knowledge of what goes on in that room, but that's not really germane to my point. Having a close working relationship (as well as at least one personal relationship) over years and years with the very same people who you end up across the table from during contract negotiations is the issue. It's my opinion that some of the NC member's previous SIG work which I think I can safely assume requires compromise and in some situations acceptance of absolutes laid out by the company may not have been the best training ground for our NC.

On another SIG note - let's just say that I was interested in getting inside that room, the happenings within I readily admit I have no clue about. If I volunteered next week, how long would it take before I was allowed behind the green door, so to speak? Is that even possible for an average unknown person who might want to do that work? From what I understand, it takes some serious juice to go from scrubbing pairings to getting inside that room. Is such a well protected and exclusive fiefdom a healthy thing to have? Is it the best place to draw NC members from? Maybe you can offer your opinions because I can only go on what I've gleaned from conversation with other prior SIG folks.

I realize you were a bit offended, but are you really insinuating that my criticism of our NC and MEC is why we seem to consistently fail with contract language and enforcement? There are many, many reasons why that happens and I don't begin to claim that I could lay out a cogent explanation of them all. I certainly have my theories but they're best reserved for several hours in a bar with plenty of whisky. However, I'm pretty sure my criticism isn't one of them. Results speak for themselves and they are highly deserving of every bit of criticism they receive. Dysfunction and selfishness? Yup, they're a big problem, I couldn't agree more. There are a large number of our pilots that simply don't "get it" or don't care to. Self-regulating each other in the legalistic and punitive culture that's been built here is impossible. You're right, I don't see all that changing any time soon.

I can say that I've been at an airline that had their collective ALPA stuff squared away (albeit in a very different environment that we face now in many respects). As a new union member just off probation, I watched as the leadership lead, the pilots did what was required as a group (ya know, that unity thing?) and backed by that, the NC aggressively and WITHOUT COMPROMISE got us one of the best contracts the industry had seen to that point. The negotiating environment was fertile and in our favor during that period and they made the best of it. Much like our negotiating environment was in 2015 leading into our eventual contract, however, as we all know the results were significantly different.

So, again, my apologies. If we cross paths on the 777 and we can figure out who we are, I'd gladly buy you a beer or three and solve the world's problems further.
Hey Adlerdriver, I'm not offended by what you said, I'm just frustrated. The reason I'm frustrated is that I'm constantly seeing pilots here blaming the Union for this, suing them for that and just constant agitation. The bottom line,the union is us, we voted these guys to represent us and the way to go about change, if that's what you want, is vote someone else in or get involved. The net result from all this is a pilot group that is very fractured and as far away from unity as possible. Couple that with a company that is a professional at playing us and dividing us and you get the results we always get. It's been that way since I was hired and unfortunately I don't see it changing.

I also realize that this system is not perfect. There a lot of decisions that the union makes that I don't agree with or downright **** me off. The alternative in my opinion is much worse.

As far as getting on the PSIT, I was flying with a pilot who was on the PSIT and he told me that they were looking for reviewers. I had already decided to get involved in the union in some capacity to do my part and this seemed like a good way. I initially had no desire to be a builder, but as I got involved in the scrubbing more, I found it interesting and felt like I was helping out making sure we had good pairings for the build. I was asked about a year after scrubbing if I would be interested in being a builder. I didn't know anybody on the PSIT, I wasn't connected. I just volunteered to review and after a while when an opening became available, I was asked if I wanted to build. Yes, there are benefits to being a builder, but in my opinion, I did't think it outweighed the work involved. There are guys who can do that work for many years, but after 4 years of doing it I was done. As far the Stockholm Syndrome, never happened. We had a working relationship with the company SIG and you had to to make this work. We were able to make a lot of changes and of course there times we couldn't. The times that we felt that the pairing was egregious enough, we would dispute it, than some pilot would fly it voluntarily and we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Again the system isn't perfect but we saw what happened when the company built the lines during 4a2b, it wasn't pretty. So, I wonder to myself, is this pilot group ever going to be able to put their petty differences aside and suck it up to show a united front? After watching one of our own sue the union, I seriously doubt that will happen. I think you can lay the results of this contract on that more than anything else. Of course that's just my opinion and I'm sure Tony will tell me where I'm wrong
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:20 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
Perhaps you could enlighten us by describing what goes on during build week. What was your schedule like? What time did you begin each day, and what time did you end? Where did you physically work? How much time was on ALPA property, and how much on FedEx property? Where did you eat? Who paid your trip removal? Who paid for your meals? Where did commuters stay? Who paid?

Were you ever able to draw a line in the sand on any issue to the point of delaying the publishing of a bid period package, or was the deadline always the deadline? Were you ever able to convince The Company to change a pairing to a less onerous schedule if it was going to cost The Company more money, or were the only solutions acceptable those which cost the same or less? How many disputed pairing disputes were decided by the final arbitrator in our favor?
Apart from the scheduling subject matter expertise, what experience did you gain on the PSIT which you believe would make you a better CBA negotiator?

If the goings on of the PSIT are so secretive that nobody has a clue what goes on there, isn't that a problem? Well, provide the solution. Tell us all about it.






.
Tony, you were an MEC member. You already know the answer to all those questions. Why don't you enlightened everybody on what goes on in the PSIT?
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:47 AM   #45
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I'd ten times rather fly the line than be answerable to a bunch like this.....
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:45 AM   #46
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Tony, you were an MEC member. You already know the answer to all those questions. Why don't you enlightened everybody on what goes on in the PSIT?

The reason I'm letting YOU enlighten us about the job is because YOU are the one who rolled in on Adlerdriver claiming he didn't know anything he was talking about and you VOLUNTEERED -- all caps.

I'm not saying there was no work involved, or even that pilots don't benefit from the work. I won't even quibble with you over the use of volunteer vs. paid worker -- nobody should suffer financially because of union work. However, the work is not unpaid, and it does come with certain perks. It also involves working closely with The Company month in and month out, and there are limits to what you can do to fix pairings or build lines. When The Company says it can't be fixed, you have to accept that and move on. While we can refuse to agree on a section of the CBA during Section 6 negotiations, we can't refuse to publish a bid period package.

So, if you think Adlerdriver was incorrect in his observation, instead of getting your nose bent out of joint because you VOLUNTEERED, please tell us about the work of that group and how the skills transfer to the Negotiating Committee. All 4 of the Negotiating Committee members who brought us this CBA were children of the PSIT.






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Old 07-18-2017, 08:39 AM   #47
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The reason I'm letting YOU enlighten us about the job is because YOU are the one who rolled in on Adlerdriver claiming he didn't know anything he was talking about and you VOLUNTEERED -- all caps.

I'm not saying there was no work involved, or even that pilots don't benefit from the work. I won't even quibble with you over the use of volunteer vs. paid worker -- nobody should suffer financially because of union work. However, the work is not unpaid, and it does come with certain perks. It also involves working closely with The Company month in and month out, and there are limits to what you can do to fix pairings or build lines. When The Company says it can't be fixed, you have to accept that and move on. While we can refuse to agree on a section of the CBA during Section 6 negotiations, we can't refuse to publish a bid period package.

So, if you think Adlerdriver was incorrect in his observation, instead of getting your nose bent out of joint because you VOLUNTEERED, please tell us about the work of that group and how the skills transfer to the Negotiating Committee. All 4 of the Negotiating Committee members who brought us this CBA were children of the PSIT.






.
Tony first off,my nose wasn't bent out of shape. Wether you get paid or not, you have to first volunteer to get into that position. As we all know Tony, the vast majority of pilots never volunteer for anything in the union throughout their career. Everybody has the same option if they think somebody is getting a good deal to apply, volunteer for that position. Like I said, in my opinion, the compensation for what I did on the PSIT was definitely not the reason of why I did it. I would think that would vary depending on the person. I felt an obligation to do something for our union and that's where I ended up for whatever reason. I really wasn't seeking it out.

As for PSIT members being on the negotiating committee, I don't know wether that makes you more or less qualified to do the job. I think that at least lends to you knowing more about that section. Aren't all the members of negotiating committee voted on by the MEC? If they didn't want all the members to be prior PSIT, why did they approve them? As you also know Tony, the negotiating committee doesn't negotiate whatever they want. They get their marching orders from the MEC. They have some latitude obviously, but in the end, the MEC votes on wether to approve whatever the negotiating committee brings to them. Also, the pilot group makes the final decision. We can beat this into the ground all day long, and the results will not change. Maybe it's time to move forward and hope we can actually unite. Not holding my breath!
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:38 AM   #48
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3% pay raise as we keep our constantly reducing A-plan as they pick what little meat is left off the bones of this contract. Get used to it. It happens every 5-8 years whether you like it or not.
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:04 PM   #49
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At the very least, we could have gotten a "continuation clause", so we keep getting 3% each year that they stall us for the next contract.

It's always 3%, and they always stall for 2 years.

You would think we would have learned by now. I thought pilots were smarter than that.

I'd rather have the 3% up front, than wait around for the rest of my "signing bonus".

Speaking of which, any rumors on the 5%?
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:26 PM   #50
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Tony first off,my nose wasn't bent out of shape. Wether you get paid or not, you have to first volunteer to get into that position. As we all know Tony, the vast majority of pilots never volunteer for anything in the union throughout their career. Everybody has the same option if they think somebody is getting a good deal to apply, volunteer for that position. Like I said, in my opinion, the compensation for what I did on the PSIT was definitely not the reason of why I did it. I would think that would vary depending on the person. I felt an obligation to do something for our union and that's where I ended up for whatever reason. I really wasn't seeking it out.

That's not the message I received when you shouted, in protest to Adlerdriver's accurate observation about the composition of the Negotiating Committee who brought us the deal, "I VOLUNTEERED!" Yes, everyone who does that job does it by choice, we get that. However, membership in that club does come with a price. Few pilots spend as much time working in the belly of the beast every month rubbing shoulders with the very people The Company trusts to extract the most work possible from us.



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As for PSIT members being on the negotiating committee, I don't know wether that makes you more or less qualified to do the job. I think that at least lends to you knowing more about that section. Aren't all the members of negotiating committee voted on by the MEC? If they didn't want all the members to be prior PSIT, why did they approve them? As you also know Tony, the negotiating committee doesn't negotiate whatever they want. They get their marching orders from the MEC. They have some latitude obviously, but in the end, the MEC votes on wether to approve whatever the negotiating committee brings to them.

Why did the MEC _________?

How much time do you have to listen?

I think it is critical for the Negotiating Committee to have access to a scheduling SME, and having a member of that committee who is a scheduling SME is an asset. However, having ONLY scheduling SMEs is not, and that is what Adlerdriver's observed. I can assure you, it was not our unanimous decision.

You wouldn't take your car with a wheel alignment problem to a shop that only installs glass.

The questions I asked you about build week were not meant to denigrate you, or your choice to do union work, or the trade-offs you made to do that work. They were meant to describe the relationship between a PSIT volunteer and The Company. The culture that is cultivated in that environment, in my opinion, does NOT prepare one to be the Negotiating Committee Chairman. He needs to be able to **** The Company off, not **** his pants when The Company says, "No."


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Also, the pilot group makes the final decision. We can beat this into the ground all day long, and the results will not change. Maybe it's time to move forward and hope we can actually unite. Not holding my breath!

Try to take a breath and consider the context of this conversation. Adlerdriver only observed a few facts about how we got here and related them to where we might go in the future with retirement options. Based on his accurate observations, he has (and I have) little confidence (dare I say no confidence) that we'll find something that benefits us AND The Company. If The Company agrees to it, you know it benefits them. If our Negotiating Committee says it will also benefit us ...? Will you believe?






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