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Old 10-17-2020, 01:21 PM   #201  
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I've been here 25yrs and I have seen zero, ZERO, improvements from any of our MEC's or our Union leadership. We hopefully have one thing going for us, the continued loads we are hauling and the extra flying. We need to stop doing overtime when the summer comes. In 2015 we suddenly got the company to agree to some terms and we got a contract after years of negotiations. And, we need to get our mindset off the pension and look at other options for the new guys coming on. Cash over cap, an increased B fund. Anyone remember M. Akin, F Fato, S Stratton? Thats at least 12yrs of crappy leaders and I can't remember who else has sold us out in my 25yrs.
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Old 10-18-2020, 04:26 AM   #202  
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What angered me was PM's speech during this weeks online ALPA meeting. He specifically talked down expectations on achieving UPS pay rates as their company secretly negotiated a two-year extension/raises while the rest of the passenger carriers are in negotiations while trying to fight off bankruptcies.
The airlines pattern bargain. That is my expectation. UPS is our closest peer. Pay rates should be our easiest get since they are so black and white. We’ve trailed UPS pay since 2016. UPS already has company-wide WB rates, so we’d still be behind there. If we don’t get UPS plus a nickel, that’s an easy offer to politely decline.
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Old 10-18-2020, 08:18 AM   #203  
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The airlines pattern bargain. That is my expectation. UPS is our closest peer. Pay rates should be our easiest get since they are so black and white. We’ve trailed UPS pay since 2016. UPS already has company-wide WB rates, so we’d still be behind there. If we don’t get UPS plus a nickel, that’s an easy offer to politely decline.
PTB-it wasn't my takeaway that PM was creating an expectation of payrates lower than UPS, but rather expressing what a GOOD thing it is that UPS raised the bar. And saying one reason UPS Management did so is the desire to avoid dual negotiations. The simple fact that UPS Ground\Air are both Unionized is a big advantage for the IPA.

And the whole point of pattern bargaining is sometimes you've got the highest payrates and then someone else raises the bar.

NMG, would say that when you drop a year, it doesn't always tell the whole story.
UPS Signed their 5-year deal in the Summer of 2016 and the pay rates were effective September 1st.
Sept 1st UPS pay rate was $300 while our Nov 1st was $295.27

But that pay rate doesn't consider other factors where our CBA is better, and still others where our CBA is worse.

As one comparison, even our FO's have a superior Intl Override compared to UPS Captains,
we're at $10\8 UPS is $6.50\4.50

As for me, only semi-care what Pax carriers pay rates are. Do care what the Cargo pay is, and whether FedEx is profitable or not
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Old 10-18-2020, 10:11 AM   #204  
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PTB-it wasn't my takeaway that PM was creating an expectation of payrates lower than UPS, but rather expressing what a GOOD thing it is that UPS raised the bar. And saying one reason UPS Management did so is the desire to avoid dual negotiations. The simple fact that UPS Ground\Air are both Unionized is a big advantage for the IPA.

And the whole point of pattern bargaining is sometimes you've got the highest payrates and then someone else raises the bar.

NMG, would say that when you drop a year, it doesn't always tell the whole story.
UPS Signed their 5-year deal in the Summer of 2016 and the pay rates were effective September 1st.
Sept 1st UPS pay rate was $300 while our Nov 1st was $295.27

But that pay rate doesn't consider other factors where our CBA is better, and still others where our CBA is worse.

As one comparison, even our FO's have a superior Intl Override compared to UPS Captains,
we're at $10\8 UPS is $6.50\4.50

As for me, only semi-care what Pax carriers pay rates are. Do care what the Cargo pay is, and whether FedEx is profitable or not
Totally understand where you are coming from. I get the give and take of negotiations and I do believe we have some nice QOL advantages over UPS. I don’t think our WB rates were substantially lower than our peers during this last contract.
All that being said, I think the focus for C2021 is rates and retirement. Given that there aren’t many QOL items on the table, I would be disappointed if our rates did not advance the bar in a reasonable fashion.
As far as FedEx being profitable. UPS signed their deal in 02/2020. That was a very different economic climate for cargo carriers than present day. FedEx is light years ahead today when compared to the UPS TA date. If this continues, it bodes well for us.
Full disclosure: I did not see PM not read his statements. I was just going off the previous poster’s comments.
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Old 10-18-2020, 02:13 PM   #205  
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As far as pattern bargaining - did the IPA get UPS to improve their A Plan last time around? I thought that was the case, but might be mistaking it with the improvement to their B Plan.
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Old 10-18-2020, 02:18 PM   #206  
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As far as pattern bargaining - did the IPA get UPS to improve their A Plan last time around? I thought that was the case, but might be mistaking it with the improvement to their B Plan.

Yes, both in Contract 2016 and Extension 2020. Extension 2020 bumped the Flat Dollar Amount to $4300/YOS (Captains) in 2022 and $4400/YOS in 2023.

No DC changes in either agreement.
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:10 AM   #207  
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Yes, both in Contract 2016 and Extension 2020. Extension 2020 bumped the Flat Dollar Amount to $4300/YOS (Captains) in 2022 and $4400/YOS in 2023.

No DC changes in either agreement.
IOW- in 2023 a UPS Capt with 25 YOS will get a $110k pension. 29 YOS will get a $127.6k pension. 30 YOS (which I think is their CBA max, but not looking it up) will get a $132k pension.

Should you retire as an FO at UPS, your pension is substantially lower.
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:18 AM   #208  
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IOW- in 2023 a UPS Capt with 25 YOS will get a $110k pension. 29 YOS will get a $127.6k pension. 30 YOS (which I think is their CBA max, but not looking it up) will get a $132k pension.

Should you retire as an FO at UPS, your pension is substantially lower.
That is correct.

That reality does not change the fact both Contract 2016 and Extension 2020 enhanced the UPS/IPA Defined Benefit pension, which was the specific question asked by CloudSailor.
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:08 PM   #209  
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That is correct.

That reality does not change the fact both Contract 2016 and Extension 2020 enhanced the UPS/IPA Defined Benefit pension, which was the specific question asked by CloudSailor.

I understand you directly answering the other question but Kronans point is that even with “the gains” a UPS Capt get 110k at 25 YOS while a FedEx Capt gets 130k. UPS does have a larger capped B plan at 12% compared to ours at 9%. Will that 3% DC difference fill the 20k a year pension shortfall? That all depends on market returns and earnings.
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:53 PM   #210  
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I think the larger point is that UPS used to have an A plan that greatly lagged ours and a B plan that greatly eclipsed ours. They’ve made large strides in the former and we’ve made modest improvements in the latter. But there is no “line in the sand” on our A plan other than what we’re willing (or unable) to cross. This ought to be the CBA where we finally demonstrate the resolve to move the needle in the right direction on our A plan. Our IPA brothers and sisters have done their work - time to do our part.


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