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Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2587906)
VA plan IS a Pension, it's just Defined Differently.
But it is Still a Defined Benefit Plan For Something that a few on the Internet define as a GiveAway to The Company...Company sure doesn't seem to be in any hurry to Accept this So Called Gift to the Man |
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2587867)
FedEx pilots are fools if they negotiate away their defined pension.
In exchange for accepting the VA plan, they'll ask for something the company took back in the last contract (like lay flat seat provision) and market it as a complete win. Or they'll just low ball the VA plan and present the worst case scenario first ... it's the FDX ALPA way. As I see it, to even consider the VA plan, I would need to see industry leading language and increases in all sections of the contract; compensation, B-fund, profit sharing, vacation, jumpseat, reserve, etc.etc. Pension risk has value and that value is worth more than the POTENTIAL to earn more in retirement. FedEx owns the bill associated with that risk. We shouldn't assume that risk unless it is overwhelmingly in our favor to do so which means the company is never going to accept my offer. But they'll accept ALPA's low ball offer and we will forever be known in the industry as the suckers we are. |
This needs to be the opening to any negotiations!
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
(Post 2587867)
FedEx pilots are fools if they negotiate away their defined pension.
In exchange for accepting the VA plan, they'll ask for something the company took back in the last contract (like lay flat seat provision) and market it as a complete win. Or they'll just low ball the VA plan and present the worst case scenario first ... it's the FDX ALPA way. As I see it, to even consider the VA plan, I would need to see industry leading language and increases in all sections of the contract; compensation, B-fund, profit sharing, vacation, jumpseat, reserve, etc.etc. Pension risk has value and that value is worth more than the POTENTIAL to earn more in retirement. FedEx owns the bill associated with that risk. We shouldn't assume that risk unless it is overwhelmingly in our favor to do so which means the company is never going to accept my offer. But they'll accept ALPA's low ball offer and we will forever be known in the industry as the suckers we are. |
For Something that a few on the Internet define as a GiveAway to The Company...Company sure doesn't seem to be in any hurry to Accept this So Called Gift to the Man[/QUOTE]
That's because they are playing chess, not checkers. |
Originally Posted by DLax85
(Post 2584551)
This change alone is a major disadvantage of the proposed VB plan. It will decrease a pilots accrued benefit, and will decrease the rate a pilot can increase his accrued benefit as he upgrades Save average pilot hired at age 35 here works 30 years (almost everyone going to 65 so let's not beat around the bush on that) - he leaves with a maximum of $130,000 benefit. Same average pilot makes WB in 3 years, NB Captain in 8 years and WB captain in 13 years (this tracks exactly with someone hired in 2005 which was about the worst time to get hired for upgrades of current pilots on property). His benefit under the modeled VBP would be something like: YEAR 1-3 average pay $140,000 - benefit $8400 YEAR 4-8 average pay $190,000 - benefit $19,000 YEAR 9-13 average pay $220,000 - benefit $22,000 YEAR 14-30 average pay IRS 401a17 limits indexed up annually - estimate benefit $107,000 Total benefit based on floor only $156,000 - it would actually be higher if you accounted for average stock returns in those years. Of course that's for someone hired around 2005. If you were hired after that the benefit is far greater. Now if you sat around on NBFO pay forever you could be negatively affected. Heck, most of the widebody FOs I know today are making close to $260,000 in pensionable earnings. Correct my assumptions if I'm wrong. |
Originally Posted by decrabbitz
(Post 2588091)
For Something that a few on the Internet define as a GiveAway to The Company...Company sure doesn't seem to be in any hurry to Accept this So Called Gift to the Man
That's because they are playing chess, not checkers.[/QUOTE] Interesting...any other examples where The Company is doing pilots a favor and Not Reducing The Companies cost? The Company sure seems focused on improving efficiency, reducing costs, and outsourcing where available. The recent change in telephone access to our auditors is one example. Guess you’re thinking The Company is saving up these savings for CBA 202X |
Originally Posted by kronan
(Post 2587906)
VA plan IS a Pension, it's just Defined Differently.
But it is Still a Defined Benefit Plan For Something that a few on the Internet define as a GiveAway to The Company...Company sure doesn't seem to be in any hurry to Accept this So Called Gift to the Man |
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2588407)
Huh? Why?
Save average pilot hired at age 35 here works 30 years (almost everyone going to 65 so let's not beat around the bush on that) - he leaves with a maximum of $130,000 benefit. Same average pilot makes WB in 3 years, NB Captain in 8 years and WB captain in 13 years (this tracks exactly with someone hired in 2005 which was about the worst time to get hired for upgrades of current pilots on property). His benefit under the modeled VBP would be something like: YEAR 1-3 average pay $140,000 - benefit $8400 YEAR 4-8 average pay $190,000 - benefit $19,000 YEAR 9-13 average pay $220,000 - benefit $22,000 YEAR 14-30 average pay IRS 401a17 limits indexed up annually - estimate benefit $107,000 Total benefit based on floor only $156,000 - it would actually be higher if you accounted for average stock returns in those years. Of course that's for someone hired around 2005. If you were hired after that the benefit is far greater. Now if you sat around on NBFO pay forever you could be negatively affected. Heck, most of the widebody FOs I know today are making close to $260,000 in pensionable earnings. Correct my assumptions if I'm wrong. |
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2588407)
Huh? Why?
Save average pilot hired at age 35 here works 30 years (almost everyone going to 65 so let's not beat around the bush on that) - he leaves with a maximum of $130,000 benefit. Same average pilot makes WB in 3 years, NB Captain in 8 years and WB captain in 13 years (this tracks exactly with someone hired in 2005 which was about the worst time to get hired for upgrades of current pilots on property). His benefit under the modeled VBP would be something like: YEAR 1-3 average pay $140,000 - benefit $8400 YEAR 4-8 average pay $190,000 - benefit $19,000 YEAR 9-13 average pay $220,000 - benefit $22,000 YEAR 14-30 average pay IRS 401a17 limits indexed up annually - estimate benefit $107,000 Total benefit based on floor only $156,000 - it would actually be higher if you accounted for average stock returns in those years. Of course that's for someone hired around 2005. If you were hired after that the benefit is far greater. Now if you sat around on NBFO pay forever you could be negatively affected. Heck, most of the widebody FOs I know today are making close to $260,000 in pensionable earnings. Correct my assumptions if I'm wrong. YEAR 14-20 average pay IRS 401a17 limits indexed up annually - estimate benefit $107,000 YEAR 20-30 out on medical disability |
Originally Posted by Tuck
(Post 2588407)
Huh? Why?
Save average pilot hired at age 35 here works 30 years (almost everyone going to 65 so let's not beat around the bush on that) - he leaves with a maximum of $130,000 benefit. Same average pilot makes WB in 3 years, NB Captain in 8 years and WB captain in 13 years (this tracks exactly with someone hired in 2005 which was about the worst time to get hired for upgrades of current pilots on property). His benefit under the modeled VBP would be something like: YEAR 1-3 average pay $140,000 - benefit $8400 YEAR 4-8 average pay $190,000 - benefit $19,000 YEAR 9-13 average pay $220,000 - benefit $22,000 YEAR 14-30 average pay IRS 401a17 limits indexed up annually - estimate benefit $107,000 Total benefit based on floor only $156,000 - it would actually be higher if you accounted for average stock returns in those years. Of course that's for someone hired around 2005. If you were hired after that the benefit is far greater. Now if you sat around on NBFO pay forever you could be negatively affected. Heck, most of the widebody FOs I know today are making close to $260,000 in pensionable earnings. Correct my assumptions if I'm wrong. Please provide the pay you are assuming for each year 14 thru 30 in your calculations above...or at least confirm you are assuming the average pay over those 17 years is $314,705.88 My statement regarding using a “High 5” model to compute a pilots earned benefit vs a “career average earnings” model is certainly mathematically correct Now, if you limit one plan to 25 YOS, while allowing the other to go to 30 AND you limit one plan to $260K, while allowing another to be indexed to a higher IRS limit - then those two changes may offset the decrease in earned benefit It’s easy to show Plan VB is greater than Plan A, when you assume there is NO WAY we could possibly improve Plan A. None. Zip. Nada. Our union leadership is telling us the ONLY way to get an increase cap and increased YOS will be to abandon the “High 5” method (along with all of the QOL benefits and medical protections which it allows) and transferring investment risk from the company to the pilots It’s this premise, I reject. Changing maximum YOS or indexing the cap to IRS limits are changes that can be negotiated to the current Defined Benefit A Plan The High 5 method does not need to be abandoned. It’s a very powerful and flexible part of our current A plan Improvements can be made to the current A plan....AND our B plan Because ultimately, it’s our TOTAL retirement we’re debating Now with all that said, the purpose of THIS particular thread wasn’t to rehash those portions of the debate Rather, it was to provide actual factual data on the health of our A fund To use that factual data to assess the company’s ability to pay The company cries “we’re too poor...we can’t possibly make any improvements” (...All while pilots are working 4-5 years longer AND their payouts in retirement are 4-5 years less...Hmm?) Then our leadership proclaims “We must change!” (We must abandon High 5, we must work longer for the same earned accrued benefit, and we must accept the investment risk) Does the financial data provided by the company (presented in my first post in this thread) support thses statements in 2016? What will the 2017 data show? Given market returns last year, what about 2018? I’m going to predict the next 2 years will also showing FTAP funding levels over 100% In Unity, DLax |
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