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123456789 04-27-2018 04:25 AM


Originally Posted by PW305 (Post 2580985)
You have to admit, sub is ridiculous. They cancel a trip on you and you’re happy you can make it up at 125% later? Should be paid trip guarantee and go home...

That will never happen.

Adlerdriver 04-27-2018 04:36 AM


Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2581184)
I can't find that rule anywhere in the CBA or the FOM. Could you provide the section in the FOM or CBA that states this rule?

It's not. Not a restriction. Not an issue. There's no jumpseat police looking to bump people off trips. I'm pretty sure you know that but I'm replying to your post out of convenience. PTB has drawn some conclusions that aren't based in any factual information.

However, if one misses an interrnational trip because they were using a single FX jumpseat to get to work, I wouldn't expect a lot of sympathy from their fleet Captain.

Unless someone lives in a city with multiple FX flights inbound to their domicile that would allow a prudent commute plan with back-ups, using a single FX flight from their home airport is pretty foolish. Expecting management to embrace that plan is equally foolish. A chief pilot at one of those airlines PTB mentions with 95% of their pilots commuting into international trips would agree. Those pax pilots commuting into their trips are expected to follow their company's commuter policy which is going to require AT LEAST one back-up flight, maybe more.

We're fortunate that our commuter policy allows a single FX flight to serve as our one and only way to get to domicile for a trip provided it meets the CBA criteria. Apparently some of our pilots who may have gotten used to that situation flying domestic have come to the mistaken conclusion that such a commute plan should be okay for international ops as well. Trying to use a single flight with no back-ups to commute to an international flight is not a valid plan at FedEx or any other airline. But, there's nothing stopping anyone here from doing it if they are willing to run that risk.

UnusualAttitude 04-27-2018 05:08 AM


Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 2581209)
It's not. Not a restriction. Not an issue. There's no jumpseat police looking to bump people off trips. I'm pretty sure you know that but I'm replying to your post out of convenience. PTB has drawn some conclusions that aren't based in any factual information.

However, if one misses an interrnational trip because they were using a single FX jumpseat to get to work, I wouldn't expect a lot of sympathy from their fleet Captain.

Unless someone lives in a city with multiple FX flights inbound to their domicile that would allow a prudent commute plan with back-ups, using a single FX flight from their home airport is pretty foolish. Expecting management to embrace that plan is equally foolish. A chief pilot at one of those airlines PTB mentions with 95% of their pilots commuting into international trips would agree. Those pax pilots commuting into their trips are expected to follow their company's commuter policy which is going to require AT LEAST one back-up flight, maybe more.

We're fortunate that our commuter policy allows a single FX flight to serve as our one and only way to get to domicile for a trip provided it meets the CBA criteria. Apparently some of our pilots who may have gotten used to that situation flying domestic have come to the mistaken conclusion that such a commute plan should be okay for international ops as well. Trying to use a single flight with no back-ups to commute to an international flight is not a valid plan at FedEx or any other airline. But, there's nothing stopping anyone here from doing it if they are willing to run that risk.

Completely accurate.

UA

Shaman 04-27-2018 05:08 AM


Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2581176)
Yeah, it can be done, but your VLT pay of $55K requires 33-35 days of extra work in the year. Also, $10K in training and OTR? I have no idea what OTR is, but training pay for 5 days a year is less than $4K.

So yeah, work your regular schedule and add an average of 3 days a month onto that and hope that you can get it at draft. Sounds easy.

Pin you're assumptions are a out of phase with my reality.

One of the best things about Fedex is we have the opportunity to fly very low block hours for lots of Pay. Example 6.5 hrs block 65 hrs Crd. Those are high value trips that might look like 7 or 8 days, but if you plan it properly it might work out to 4-5. So your assumption about extra days is not accurate at all. In fact the total days away from home can be significantly lower than a standard line.

The numbers I'm quoting are from the paycheck stub.

XTRA pairings and CHTR beat anything in the bid pack everyday and twice on Sundays.

I've flown for other airlines and I'm saying my experience Here is not what I'd be doing at Delta or any other Major. I know it may seem unbelievable, but its there. Hell sometimes I'm like daayuum!!!

I mean all the scheduling tools: the AVA drop it down the hole conflict carry in Triple double over unders etc. It just depends on how deep you want to go with it all.

A lot of guys aren't interested in doing what it takes to either learn or leverage these advantages. That's not easy but the payout is more $$$ for less work.

And I like money!!!

pinseeker 04-27-2018 07:43 AM


Originally Posted by Shaman (Post 2581226)
Pin you're assumptions are a out of phase with my reality.

One of the best things about Fedex is we have the opportunity to fly very low block hours for lots of Pay. Example 6.5 hrs block 65 hrs Crd. Those are high value trips that might look like 7 or 8 days, but if you plan it properly it might work out to 4-5. So your assumption about extra days is not accurate at all. In fact the total days away from home can be significantly lower than a standard line.

The numbers I'm quoting are from the paycheck stub.

XTRA pairings and CHTR beat anything in the bid pack everyday and twice on Sundays.

I've flown for other airlines and I'm saying my experience Here is not what I'd be doing at Delta or any other Major. I know it may seem unbelievable, but its there. Hell sometimes I'm like daayuum!!!

I mean all the scheduling tools: the AVA drop it down the hole conflict carry in Triple double over unders etc. It just depends on how deep you want to go with it all.

A lot of guys aren't interested in doing what it takes to either learn or leverage these advantages. That's not easy but the payout is more $$$ for less work.

And I like money!!!


Shaman,

My assumptions are that your assertions that it is easy for a 2nd year MD FO to make over $250K and be home more than a regular line holder are unrealistic.

If you protect min days off for the whole year, you have no more than 196 days on your calendar. Take out 15 days for vacation, and you should have no more than 181 days on your calendar. (8*15 and 4*19).

Now a second year FO in 2017 made just under $168/hr for 10 of the 12 months. The last two months, they made just under $173/hr. So, let's just say $170/hr for the year. If you made $170K for BLG, that is 1000 hours. VLT would pay $255/hr. If you made $55K at that rate, that would be 215 credit hours. 1000+215 is 1215 credit hours for the year, not counting days of training and OTR.

Trip rig pays 6.4 credit hours for every 24 hour away from base. 1215/6.4 comes to 190 days away from base. Add in 5 days for training, and you are scheduled for a minimum of 195 days.

That doesn't even account for trips that start or end on a half day, which if you are deadheading a lot, would come into play. My guess is that you have several months where you have less than min days off on your calendar. Now, I know you can be home for more days than the scheduled, I was on the MD for 10 years, but it is not as easy or as prevalent as you make it out to be.

Again, great for you that you have been able to make a schedule that you are happy with, but there is no way that the average 2nd year MD FO can be at home more than a line holder and make over $250K. Not saying some can't, but definitely not the norm. In my ten years on the MD, I never came close to $250K, and had a higher hourly rate than yours. But if I got home early, I didn't pick up extra, I took the time off.

I like spending time with the family over money!!

Raptor 04-27-2018 08:38 AM


Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2581339)
Shaman,

My assumptions are that your assertions that it is easy for a 2nd year MD FO to make over $250K and be home more than a regular line holder are unrealistic.

If you protect min days off for the whole year, you have no more than 196 days on your calendar. Take out 15 days for vacation, and you should have no more than 181 days on your calendar. (8*15 and 4*19).

Now a second year FO in 2017 made just under $168/hr for 10 of the 12 months. The last two months, they made just under $173/hr. So, let's just say $170/hr for the year. If you made $170K for BLG, that is 1000 hours. VLT would pay $255/hr. If you made $55K at that rate, that would be 215 credit hours. 1000+215 is 1215 credit hours for the year, not counting days of training and OTR.

Trip rig pays 6.4 credit hours for every 24 hour away from base. 1215/6.4 comes to 190 days away from base. Add in 5 days for training, and you are scheduled for a minimum of 195 days.

That doesn't even account for trips that start or end on a half day, which if you are deadheading a lot, would come into play. My guess is that you have several months where you have less than min days off on your calendar. Now, I know you can be home for more days than the scheduled, I was on the MD for 10 years, but it is not as easy or as prevalent as you make it out to be.

Again, great for you that you have been able to make a schedule that you are happy with, but there is no way that the average 2nd year MD FO can be at home more than a line holder and make over $250K. Not saying some can't, but definitely not the norm. In my ten years on the MD, I never came close to $250K, and had a higher hourly rate than yours. But if I got home early, I didn't pick up extra, I took the time off.

I like spending time with the family over money!!

I absolutely believe Shaman. I’ve done what he says and I know many others have too. I’ve had international revisions that have paid an extra $10,000 plus and still been home only 12 hours after originally scheduled. Sometimes magic happens with these revisions with extra landings, Duty periods, 200%, etc. I’ve had calendar months with 28 days of blue bar and only been away from home 12 days. I’ve dropped my entire schedule to do some work at home and had unbelievable charters pop up. I once got paid over 60 CH on a charter and was away from my front door about 32 hours! (And I’m a commuter.) MD-11 international/charter and 777 international—that’s where the $$ for less work are in the CBA.

But, you’re correct. Do nothing but reserve or domestic and just fly your line with some trip trades, and you’ll not see these numbers.

pinseeker 04-27-2018 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by Raptor (Post 2581390)
I absolutely believe Shaman. I’ve done what he says and I know many others have too. I’ve had international revisions that have paid an extra $10,000 plus and still been home only 12 hours after originally scheduled. Sometimes magic happens with these revisions with extra landings, Duty periods, 200%, etc. I’ve had calendar months with 28 days of blue bar and only been away from home 12 days. I’ve dropped my entire schedule to do some work at home and had unbelievable charters pop up. I once got paid over 60 CH on a charter and was away from my front door about 32 hours! (And I’m a commuter.) MD-11 international/charter and 777 international—that’s where the $$ for less work are in the CBA.

But, you’re correct. Do nothing but reserve or domestic and just fly your line with some trip trades, and you’ll not see these numbers.

Not saying that I don't believe him, just that it is not average. I flew the MD internationally for ten years, never did reserve, and had some good deals. I just never picked up any extra after those good deals. Considering that now the MD bid pack only has about 10% of the flying as international, these examples aren't what the average 2nd year FO can expect.

ClutchCargo 04-27-2018 11:18 AM


Originally Posted by Boats and Hos (Post 2580586)
It's a song from a movie Boats and Hos. Go rent Stepbrothers and you'll see. This is also an anonymous forum for the most part so I don't think that unless we are all going to start using real names that it really matters. Thanks though.



Anonymous forum? [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shaman 04-27-2018 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2581397)
Not saying that I don't believe him, just that it is not average. I flew the MD internationally for ten years, never did reserve, and had some good deals. I just never picked up any extra after those good deals. Considering that now the MD bid pack only has about 10% of the flying as international, these examples aren't what the average 2nd year FO can expect.

I'm not trying to say this is what's typical I'm saying its what's possible. With the overall point being that there's some remarkable opportunities at FEDEX that make this place very unique.

If you've been off the airplane for a while and are really only aware of what's in the bid pack I can totally understand your point of view, but trust me there are guys who haven't been off IOE for two months grabbing these opportunities.

And I know its hard to believe, but it is neither seniority dependent nor bid pack driven. These things are all subject to change, but the current reality is that guys are crushing it. Newhire guys.


To those considering coming to work here understand that this place lends itself very well to finding your niche and leveraging it to the Max. The turnover here is high which means the opportunities to move up and settle in are there. It ain't perfect, but I'll testify!!

FlyHIGHgoFAST 04-27-2018 12:16 PM


Originally Posted by 123456789 (Post 2581206)
That will never happen.

Honest question...Why do you think that will that never happen?

In my opinion there is too much of the "this is the way it has always been/what are you willing to give up" group who continue to allow the big shiny things to persuade them and leave status quo just that. It is a trend here that guys are happy taking their measly 3% and letting the work rules go down the tube. A majority of our work rules, or lack thereof, show that. Sub, reserve, duty day length during the critical period etc etc etc.... Here is a novel concept, lets negotiate pay raises AND work rule improvements! ::gasp::

NotMrNiceGuy 04-27-2018 12:27 PM


Originally Posted by FlyHIGHgoFAST (Post 2581573)
Honest question...Why do you think that will that never happen?

In my opinion there is too much of the "this is the way it has always been/what are you willing to give up" group who continue to allow the big shiny things to persuade them and leave status quo just that. It is a trend here that guys are happy taking their measly 3% and letting the work rules go down the tube. A majority of our work rules, or lack thereof, show that. Sub, reserve, duty day length during the critical period etc etc etc.... Here is a novel concept, lets negotiate pay raises AND work rule improvements! ::gasp::

+1... Needs to be said over and over.

pinseeker 04-27-2018 12:34 PM


Originally Posted by Shaman (Post 2581522)
I'm not trying to say this is what's typical I'm saying its what's possible. With the overall point being that there's some remarkable opportunities at FEDEX that make this place very unique.

If you've been off the airplane for a while and are really only aware of what's in the bid pack I can totally understand your point of view, but trust me there are guys who haven't been off IOE for two months grabbing these opportunities.

And I know its hard to believe, but it is neither seniority dependent nor bid pack driven. These things are all subject to change, but the current reality is that guys are crushing it. Newhire guys.


To those considering coming to work here understand that this place lends itself very well to finding your niche and leveraging it to the Max. The turnover here is high which means the opportunities to move up and settle in are there. It ain't perfect, but I'll testify!!

All of this, I can agree with. Especially the point about many niches for everyone.

UnusualAttitude 04-27-2018 12:56 PM


Originally Posted by flyhighgofast (Post 2581573)
honest question...why do you think that will that never happen?

In my opinion there is too much of the "this is the way it has always been/what are you willing to give up" group who continue to allow the big shiny things to persuade them and leave status quo just that. It is a trend here that guys are happy taking their measly 3% and letting the work rules go down the tube. A majority of our work rules, or lack thereof, show that. Sub, reserve, duty day length during the critical period etc etc etc.... Here is a novel concept, lets negotiate pay raises and work rule improvements! ::gasp::

yes sir/ma’am.

This.

-ua

123456789 04-27-2018 03:37 PM


Originally Posted by FlyHIGHgoFAST (Post 2581573)
Honest question...Why do you think that will that never happen?

In my opinion there is too much of the "this is the way it has always been/what are you willing to give up" group who continue to allow the big shiny things to persuade them and leave status quo just that. It is a trend here that guys are happy taking their measly 3% and letting the work rules go down the tube. A majority of our work rules, or lack thereof, show that. Sub, reserve, duty day length during the critical period etc etc etc.... Here is a novel concept, lets negotiate pay raises AND work rule improvements! ::gasp::

Because we can’t make the union care enough to negotiate it. Just like the reserve rules I believe they just dont give it a thought. I agree with the rest of your point as well especially about that’s the way we’ve always done it.

Fdxlag2 04-27-2018 03:46 PM


Originally Posted by 123456789 (Post 2581733)
Because we can’t make the union care enough to negotiate it. Just like the reserve rules I believe they just dont give it a thought. I agree with the rest of your point as well especially about that’s the way we’ve always done it.

I hate Sub. That said you want the guys who couldn’t negotiate Flat Bed Seats without giving the company everything they want to negotiate trip cancelation policy? We would end up fly 3 leg night hub turns at 75% of normal pay when ever a trip was canceled.

lpcunity 04-27-2018 04:07 PM

I’d love to hear the positive aspects of flying for FedEx. What do you guys/gals like about flying for FedEx? I know it’s a very coveted job and there are many great facets to it. What do us looking in from the outside not know?
Many thanks.

KrustyF15 04-27-2018 08:59 PM


Originally Posted by Fdxlag2 (Post 2581743)
I hate Sub. That said you want the guys who couldn’t negotiate Flat Bed Seats without giving the company everything they want to negotiate trip cancelation policy? We would end up fly 3 leg night hub turns at 75% of normal pay when ever a trip was canceled.

I find this comical.

iHateAMR 04-27-2018 11:46 PM


Originally Posted by lpcunity (Post 2581767)
I’d love to hear the positive aspects of flying for FedEx. What do you guys/gals like about flying for FedEx? I know it’s a very coveted job and there are many great facets to it. What do us looking in from the outside not know?
Many thanks.

You don’t have to deal with gate agents, flight attendants, comfort animals, contract maintenance delays, TSA high school drop out Columbos, passengers asking you to put in their frequent flyer numbers, waiting for vans to the hotel, and over priced microwaved airport food. You get paid a lot to fly big jets to cool places (including home), not many days of the month. You have most weekends and holidays off, get the most chunks of days off thanks to vacations or creative bidding, and long layovers overseas if you so desire. It’s a strong, stable company that’s not going anywhere, always looking for innovation and treats you like family. The family may not be perfect, but which family doesn’t have a negative Nancy aunt who gets her cheerio’s peed in? But luckily there’s very few like her, really very few. If you like old nostalgic jets, there’s those, if you want the latest with factory new smell, there’s those too. Want to fly domestic day, night or international, all of it is available from day one. At delta and united and the like, you have to gain seniority to touch widebody flying, and by then you will often be old and it may not suit you. Here you get the opportunity within a year.

busdriver12 04-28-2018 06:00 AM

^^What ihateAMR said.

In addition, schedule flexibility is such that you can build your schedule around your life, as opposed to planning your life around your schedule, for the most part. You can drop your entire month of flying or reserve days (manning permitted, and it often is), or give it away....and pick up trips open in the computer that you like. Or not. You can also work constantly if you prefer, your choice. I worked a very light schedule when my kids were at home, now I often work extra.

I'd be willing to gamble that we have more pilots earning 400, 500, 600K plus than any other airline (though they definitely earn it by working more). We have so many widebodies that if you don't go to one pretty quickly, it's by your own choice.

We aren't getting on the news with pax filming us because the gate agent took them off the flight because their Spanx were showing. This job is mission oriented, it's about flying and getting the freight there. Pretty cool to have a flying job that focuses on aviation, what a concept.:cool: And yes, we are prima donnas that expect to be treated well, which works the best with this group of people, who will do anything to get the job done. Most of us like and appreciate our company.

If I had to right now, I'd take the bottom seniority number at FedEx than the #1 seniority number at any other airline, because of these reasons.

Shaman 04-28-2018 12:43 PM

I can only add to what Busdriver and others have said. We have a pretty top heavy crewforce meaning retirements, retirements, retirements. So as has been stated before by 2022 there will be a turnover of nearly half the current crewforce. Can you say that about any other carrier pax or frieght?

Another example, 06-07 hires have less than 500 numbers between them and those hired in 2015. In the last two years we've hired more than twice that number.

Did I mention we don't have to wear a hat?!

Commuting is easy not simply because of what has been stated here before, but also because of the nature of our flying and the associated departure times. Consider the sheer number of cascading permutations for positioning flights you can make when your scheduled departure for your first leg is 3am.

We have some great international flying with some really great layovers and you don't have to be super senior to get them. Sydney Singapore London Paris Cologne Tokyo Soeul and more are all in reach of newhires here.

If you choose to live in Memphis, welcome to the lowest cost housing market of any large metro in the country. Plenty of folks deride the place, but your purchasing power goes a country mile here. Some people hate it, but collierville and germantown look like every other suburb in Denver, Atlanta, or anywhere else in America. There's the same strip malls, chain restaurants, big box stores, and good public schools. There's also a passable NBA team here and a great fun minor league baseball team and stadium.

The aircraft are well maintained even the really old ones.

We have bases abroad if you want to have an adventure and they can be lucrative opportunities for those who can leverage them. Again something not offered by Delta, AMR, UAL or SWA.

We still have a defined benefit plan that pays 130k/yr if you can max it out (which isn't difficult to do). It could/should be allowed to grow with inflation, but $10k/ month is real money now and it was real money 15years ago and it will be real money 15 years from now and there's no management or risk involved.

Our international DH's are friggin awesome! Who needs buddy passes when you get to keep your FF miles? I personally leverage the ever living heck out of this. It can literally be worth 10's of thousand or hundreds of thousand of dollar per year and you get to earn them by dragging around the world in First Class on Delta, UAL, or AMR. I'll take 1A on DeltaOne vs a cockpit seat on the sameflight everyday and twice on sunday.

Working for Fedex or UPS means you're a part of an integrated logistics network. With few competitors and extremely high barriers to entry. Anybody that wants to compete with this Duopoly is gonna need a ton of cash, a lot of time, and tremendously patient investors. Anybody can start a passenger airline and there are new ones starting all the time. Just look at the vociferous complaints re the 3 Mid-east carriers and Upstarts like Norwegian. Those are real threats to the big 3 US carriers market share and expansion.

And the best benefit. There's so much variety here. Come here find your niche and be happy.

The salaries and benefits are always going to be competitive even with our crewforce's everyman for himself mentality and a union with questionable negotiating methods, because market forces are a real factor right now. There's a limited supply of pilots and recruiting the most desirable candidates will require the company to pay competitive wages even if dudes here are unwilling to press the issue.

That's my $.02 YMMV (your mileage may vary), but don't let anyone ever make you believe this isn't a job worth having

FXLAX 04-28-2018 05:47 PM


Originally Posted by Shaman (Post 2582176)

Another example, 06-07 hires have less than 500 numbers between them and those hired in 2015. In the last two years we've hired more than twice that number.


Out of curiosity, how do you look up dates of hire?

Adlerdriver 04-28-2018 06:34 PM


Originally Posted by FXLAX (Post 2582327)
Out of curiosity, how do you look up dates of hire?

Not in any normal way. I can't speak to every airline, but this is the only one I've seen that doesn't have DOH and DOB on the seniority list. Some kind of weird privacy/legal concern from the lawyers on the DOB part is my guess - no clue on the DOH.

Sometimes you can have a general idea based on employee numbers if you're familiar with a particular range of numbers. Other than that, if you really want the exact date the only thing I've been able to do is search the new hire pages to tie a particular class date with a group of employee numbers. That technique won't work forever as I imagine sooner or later, the classes from several years back will be removed.

PurpleToolBox 04-28-2018 08:08 PM


Originally Posted by busdriver12 (Post 2581022)
Well, I wonder why. Maybe because commuting into a long haul flight ain't so smart, and it's fatiguing? Think we're trying to work on our safety record here.

Busdriver12, I have nothing against you. But I want everyone who is looking at FedEx to see your comment. His/her thinking is not unique at FedEx. What is 100% acceptable and allowed at every major airline is considered very taboo here.

So if you have a long haul flight at FedEx, you're expected to come in the afternoon before (assuming your hometown has afternoon flights) or the night before.

If I slept all day and then jumped into a long haul flight, who cares? I am well rested. I am probably more well rested than the local bubba who Honey See Honey Doed all day, or who was up all day and then decided to grab a few hours of sleep before showtime, or who drove 3-4 hours to work.


Originally Posted by Raptor (Post 2581049)
There’s more to the story of the new hire being removed from the trip after jumpseating in. This story happened years ago and I have not heard of it happening since.

Many pilots confuse this concept in the CBA. There is NO prohibition against jumpseating into ANY trip. None, zero, Nada. What is often thought of as a prohibition is simply that one loses the protection of not getting a disciplinary letter if the combined notional Duty of Jumpseat through trip is too long. It takes quite a few of these letters before you even stand in front of the man.

Jumpseat away—legally. I would argue that many of the commuters who Jumpseat into long international trips are more rested than those who live in Memphis.

Would you recommend to a new hire on probation that they jumpseat into a long haul flight? Why or why not? If you said yes, I would say you're full of ...

Section 26.J.2.

A pilot may use a Company staging jumpseat to position himself to his base for the start of his scheduled trip IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE FOLLOWING:

a. the period beginning at scheduled showtime of a pilot's inbound jumpseat and ending 30 minutes after the scheduled termination of his first duty period must be less than 13:30.


~~~~

d. if a pilot positioning to his base on a Company jumpseat consistent with the provisions of this paragraph cannot report by showtime due to bump, cancellation, reroute, or delay of his inbound jumpseat, CRS (scheduling) may remove the pilot without pay. If a pilot is removed under this paragraph, he shall be eligible for make-up (and shall not be eligible for substitution). There is no discipline associated with the removal if the pilot followed the parameters described above.

While you state there is no prohibition, the prohibition is implied. You aren't allowed to schedule a jumpseat if you are violating the provisions in the following paragraphs of 26.J.

I personally know the crew member who was a new hire removed from his long haul trip following jumpseating. There were no other circumstances involved. Even if so, why was the senior FO sitting next to him on the same jet removed from his trip for jumpseating into longhaul? What extenuating circumstances did that crewmember have?

I agree the company isn't necessarily out there looking for people who violate this provision. However, doing so only highlights yourself and can/will be used against you when the company needs it to.


Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2581184)
I can't find that rule anywhere in the CBA or the FOM. Could you provide the section in the FOM or CBA that states this rule?

Yes, 26.J.


Originally Posted by Adlerdriver (Post 2581209)
It's not. Not a restriction. Not an issue. There's no jumpseat police looking to bump people off trips. I'm pretty sure you know that but I'm replying to your post out of convenience. PTB has drawn some conclusions that aren't based in any factual information.

However, if one misses an interrnational trip because they were using a single FX jumpseat to get to work, I wouldn't expect a lot of sympathy from their fleet Captain.

Unless someone lives in a city with multiple FX flights inbound to their domicile that would allow a prudent commute plan with back-ups, using a single FX flight from their home airport is pretty foolish. Expecting management to embrace that plan is equally foolish. A chief pilot at one of those airlines PTB mentions with 95% of their pilots commuting into international trips would agree. Those pax pilots commuting into their trips are expected to follow their company's commuter policy which is going to require AT LEAST one back-up flight, maybe more.

We're fortunate that our commuter policy allows a single FX flight to serve as our one and only way to get to domicile for a trip provided it meets the CBA criteria. Apparently some of our pilots who may have gotten used to that situation flying domestic have come to the mistaken conclusion that such a commute plan should be okay for international ops as well. Trying to use a single flight with no back-ups to commute to an international flight is not a valid plan at FedEx or any other airline. But, there's nothing stopping anyone here from doing it if they are willing to run that risk.

Valid point regarding the major airlines requiring an additional flight -- to any type of flying, long or short haul. But here's the difference. When you look at the RA reserve list for the 777, there will be 20-30 people on reserve (1 or 2 on consolidation or first fly) but there's only like maybe ten 777 departures a night out of Memphis? On the 757 it is ok to jumpseat into your flight because of the shorter duty day, but the 757 probably has five times as many departures a night with just as many sitting reserve. The long haul flights from my experience has more slop time in the schedule when it comes to delays. Whereas in many cities that are served by short haul flights, the timing is critical in meeting FedEx First Overnight deadlines so those flights are listed as high priority yet the company isn't worried about them so much due to jumpseaters missing their flights.

I agree that we are fortunate to be able to use a single aircraft to commute to work. I also think that if you can't get good sleep while jumpseating, you probably shouldn't be jumpseating to work, long haul or short haul. However, I think the 13:30 provision was created for crew rest/fatigue management versus protecting long haul flights. I could be wrong. Anyone know the history behind that language? There's plenty of reserves for the few long haul flights.


Originally Posted by FlyHIGHgoFAST (Post 2581573)
"Honest question...Why do you think that will that never happen?"

In my opinion there is too much of the "this is the way it has always been/what are you willing to give up" group who continue to allow the big shiny things to persuade them and leave status quo just that. It is a trend here that guys are happy taking their measly 3% and letting the work rules go down the tube. A majority of our work rules, or lack thereof, show that. Sub, reserve, duty day length during the critical period etc etc etc.... Here is a novel concept, lets negotiate pay raises AND work rule improvements! ::gasp::

Yes, exactly! I'm not trying to persuade someone from coming to FedEx by airing the dirty laundry, although I think those folks should be told what is messed up here. I am posting what absolutely stinks so perhaps those higher up in the union or possibly those in management tasked with "how can FedEx attract top quality recruits in the future" see whats wrong here. If enough of us complain, then maybe these things will get fixed.

Another example of WTF??? The MD-11 pilots use a gym mat, thrown onto the floor, as a crew rest facility. That's not a joke. The pilots on the few MD11s without a sleeper bunk, on long haul flights, have a mattress similar to a gymnasium mat that is laid onto the dirty floor that they sleep on in the courier area of the airplane. How in the world was that ever deemed acceptable?

I know I've stirred the hornets nest. I did it for good reason. Some people will continue to defend how great this place is yada yada and nothing is wrong. Yet, there's plenty that needs to be fixed. Some of our work rules are absolutely ridiculous if not non-existent.

We shouldn't accept this crap because "thank God I don't have to deal with passengers, 3-4 legs a day, being in airports all day long etc.etc." Instead we should be finding ways on improving our work rules so this absolutely can be called the best job in commercial aviation.

I'm sick and tired of ALPA setting future expectations. How many times have you heard someone, even ALPA leadership say "its going to be 2-3 years after this 6-year contract before we get another." NO NO NO NO NO!!! Why are we setting expectations like that? Eff that. That is not acceptable at other airlines and it shouldn't be acceptable here. We should be reminding FedEx management of the amendable date and that we demand a contract within an acceptable time frame. 2-3 years isn't acceptable and we won't stand for it.

We must get united as a crew force now. I am hoping that we hire as many regional bubbas as possible, people who have been screwed over by other managements and know what it feels like and looks like. Nothing against the military pilots as I am one, but many of them don't know what they don't know. We need people willing to stand up and say no instead of folks whose mindset is to get the mission done at all cost. FedEx pilots can't afford another C2015. We can't afford the mindsets of "well we've always done it that way" "what will we have to give up in order to fix that" "it is better than the way we had it at company XYZ/USA/USAF/USN/USMC/USCG" to keep screwing us over. We must unite and fairly demand a contract and work provisions similar to or better than our passenger counterparts. Our job involves higher risks than them and according to the leadership notes on PFC, our crew members continuously step up during critical operations to keep this train on the tracks.

Shaman 04-28-2018 09:48 PM


Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2582386)
Yes, exactly! I'm not trying to persuade someone from coming to FedEx by airing the dirty laundry, although I think those folks should be told what is messed up here. I am posting what absolutely stinks so perhaps those higher up in the union or possibly those in management tasked with "how can FedEx attract top quality recruits in the future" see whats wrong here. If enough of us complain, then maybe these things will get fixed.

Another example of WTF??? The MD-11 pilots use a gym mat, thrown onto the floor, as a crew rest facility. That's not a joke. The pilots on the few MD11s without a sleeper bunk, on long haul flights, have a mattress similar to a gymnasium mat that is laid onto the dirty floor that they sleep on in the courier area of the airplane. How in the world was that ever deemed acceptable?

I know I've stirred the hornets nest. I did it for good reason. Some people will continue to defend how great this place is yada yada and nothing is wrong. Yet, there's plenty that needs to be fixed. Some of our work rules are absolutely ridiculous if not non-existent.

We shouldn't accept this crap because "thank God I don't have to deal with passengers, 3-4 legs a day, being in airports all day long etc.etc." Instead we should be finding ways on improving our work rules so this absolutely can be called the best job in commercial aviation.

I'm sick and tired of ALPA setting future expectations. How many times have you heard someone, even ALPA leadership say "its going to be 2-3 years after this 6-year contract before we get another." NO NO NO NO NO!!! Why are we setting expectations like that? Eff that. That is not acceptable at other airlines and it shouldn't be acceptable here. We should be reminding FedEx management of the amendable date and that we demand a contract within an acceptable time frame. 2-3 years isn't acceptable and we won't stand for it.

We must get united as a crew force now. I am hoping that we hire as many regional bubbas as possible, people who have been screwed over by other managements and know what it feels like and looks like. Nothing against the military pilots as I am one, but many of them don't know what they don't know. We need people willing to stand up and say no instead of folks whose mindset is to get the mission done at all cost. FedEx pilots can't afford another C2015. We can't afford the mindsets of "well we've always done it that way" "what will we have to give up in order to fix that" "it is better than the way we had it at company XYZ/USA/USAF/USN/USMC/USCG" to keep screwing us over. We must unite and fairly demand a contract and work provisions similar to or better than our passenger counterparts. Our job involves higher risks than them and according to the leadership notes on PFC, our crew members continuously step up during critical operations to keep this train on the tracks.

This right here ^^^^^^^
https://media.giphy.com/media/bKBM7H63PIykM/giphy.gif

Flying Boxes 04-28-2018 09:56 PM

ALPA is a POLITICAL MACHINE!
 

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2582386)
.... I am probably more well rested than the local bubba who Honey See Honey Doed all day, or who was up all day and then decided to grab a few hours of sleep before showtime, or who drove 3-4 hours to work.

I drive more than 4 hours for international flights.....to a sleep room! I think I am more well rested than taking the evening Jumpseat into MEM. And it is not a big deal either.


Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2582386)
...

Section 26.J.2.

...
Yes, 26.J.

This means you are not protected from discipline. Not that it is prohibited. We are expected to be mature adults that show up for work (well rested) reliably because it's our job to do so. If you want to chance it, feel free to knowing you may/will be asked about your judgement. Personally, I'm more concerned about fatigue and not making my flight causing a lose in pay. Not really concerned about the discipline side.


Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2582386)
Another example of WTF??? The MD-11 pilots use a gym mat, thrown onto the floor, as a crew rest facility. That's not a joke. The pilots on the few MD11s without a sleeper bunk, on long haul flights, have a mattress similar to a gymnasium mat that is laid onto the dirty floor that they sleep on in the courier area of the airplane. How in the world was that ever deemed acceptable?

FedEx did not design that MD-11 with a lack of bunks, that was the configuration when they purchased them (as I understand it). And they are not going to spend the money to make pilots "happy" when it is not required. It simply is what it is. Luckily FedEx was not the launch customer for the B777...or it would probably have floor mats as well! :eek:


Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2582386)
I'm sick and tired of ALPA setting future expectations. How many times have you heard someone, even ALPA leadership say "its going to be 2-3 years after this 6-year contract before we get another." NO NO NO NO NO!!! Why are we setting expectations like that? Eff that. That is not acceptable at other airlines and it shouldn't be acceptable here. We should be reminding FedEx management of the amendable date and that we demand a contract within an acceptable time frame. 2-3 years isn't acceptable and we won't stand for it.

FedEx ALPA IS setting expectations.... for the retirement agenda first. Since they want to change it outside of Sec 6. And that may not be a bad idea based on our negotiating history! They are busy convincing us how bad the A Fund is and that we need to change that portion of the retirement before worrying about the next contract. We are being educated on how ALPA wants the VB plan to work. If we have independent thought will they try and squash those with different opinions like C2015? Why do they want to set expectations? Because of the 25 YOS limit. ALPA (we) have been unsuccessful at being unified during negotiations to improve the A Fund that now ALPA has decided to change tactics (change the retirement plan). They are strategically messaging information to achieve their goal of changing the A Fund the way ALPA wants, not necessarily the way the crew force wants (all seniority tribes). Notice we are being told what the plan is versus having input! For the over 25 YOS crowd it is a huge win (In my opinion, ALPAs real intent & first priority is to make it retro active), they will have a 25 year/high 5 risk free portion of the A Fund plus VB to offset some inflation issues (individual mileage will vary based on many factors). For the young hires it is a "strategically messaged" potential (Not Guaranteed, but more responsive to inflation) increase in retirement money, with much increased risk involved. It is the "middle" seniority that is where it gets questionable. How does the A Fund get frozen? Are there enough years to make a difference in the retirement pay out versus increased risk? Too many mid seniority pilots (my opinion) will have increased risk in retirement with the reward of "meeting" the current A Fund expected payout.

What other retirement options were we educated on?
What is our "minimum" acceptable VB variables?
Since the VB is so lucrative, maybe we should negotiate to completely change the A Fund to the VB so all seniority tribes have the same risk/reward?
(As I understand it, ERISA law prevents company from forcing a change, but allows unions to "negotiate" a change).

THE EXECUTIVE SUMMARY ON THE VB PLAN

Timing for ALPA is important!!!! We have to settle for what ALPA negotiated, they haven't asked what we consider minimums as that will tie their hands and potentially result in failure. I do not fear the change itself, but that they are more concerned with the change to get retro active retirement and hurt the remainder of the crew force in order to achieve that goal. Every dollar earned counts! :rolleyes:


Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2582386)
That is not acceptable at other airlines and it shouldn't be acceptable here. We should be reminding FedEx management of the amendable date and that we demand a contract within an acceptable time frame. 2-3 years isn't acceptable and we won't stand for it.

Is ALPA setting expectations for the company or the membership? If they energize us to be ready for negotiations, they would have to meet those expectations. So far ALPA (WE) has fallen short in that area. :mad:

pinseeker 04-29-2018 04:53 AM


Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2582386)
Would you recommend to a new hire on probation that they jumpseat into a long haul flight? Why or why not? If you said yes, I would say you're full of ...

Section 26.J.2.

A pilot may use a Company staging jumpseat to position himself to his base for the start of his scheduled trip IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE FOLLOWING:

a. the period beginning at scheduled showtime of a pilot's inbound jumpseat and ending 30 minutes after the scheduled termination of his first duty period must be less than 13:30.


~~~~

d. if a pilot positioning to his base on a Company jumpseat consistent with the provisions of this paragraph cannot report by showtime due to bump, cancellation, reroute, or delay of his inbound jumpseat, CRS (scheduling) may remove the pilot without pay. If a pilot is removed under this paragraph, he shall be eligible for make-up (and shall not be eligible for substitution). There is no discipline associated with the removal if the pilot followed the parameters described above.

While you state there is no prohibition, the prohibition is implied. You aren't allowed to schedule a jumpseat if you are violating the provisions in the following paragraphs of 26.J.

OK, based on that "rule,":rolleyes: you can't jump in the night before A reserve or the morning before B reserve. You can't jump in just before starting a hotel standby, and possibly can't jump in from the west coast to start a trip the operates back to the west coast.

Why aren't you listing all of those restrictions as well? I know, because they don't exist. You can jump in whenever you like, you just aren't protected from discipline.

There is no rule against jumping in the night before a long haul departure. I've done it many times and will do it again. And you are correct in stating that the company doesn't actively look for it, but they were actively looking at your buddy. Why?

djslappy 04-29-2018 05:10 AM

CGN
 
Is CGN junior or senior and what equipment is based there. Would love to be there if given the opportunity!

busdriver12 04-29-2018 05:52 AM

Purpletoolbox, I do agree with some of your points, but I think you're going to have a hard time convincing people to be passionately angry about the company not putting their blessing on jumpseating into long haul flights. They can't control whether someone is appropriately rested going into a flight, but that doesn't mean they have to put their stamp of approval onto something they believe is a bad idea.

I've been here for a rather long time, and our safety record is eye opening. Fatigue has been a huge factor in this, and the improvement in safety over the last several years is substantial.

I can also imagine how it would be tough to cover a 70-80 credit hour trip when the jumpseat goes kaput at the last minute. No backups, very little notice. There are plenty of things that need to be fixed, but not too many people are going to get spun up about this one.

Hacker15e 04-29-2018 06:58 AM


Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2582386)
I also think that if you can't get good sleep while jumpseating, you probably shouldn't be jumpseating to work, long haul or short haul.

What the hell are you talking about? If you can't get "good sleep" in an airplane seat, in a variety of conditions including sitting in the next-to-the-lav seat in a 76, you shouldn't jumpseat to work?

Somehow I've been able to do it without ever sleeping...but apparently I should just pick up and move the family to MEM because of it?

Draw the logic train on that one for me.

Fdxlag2 04-29-2018 07:02 AM


Originally Posted by djslappy (Post 2582485)
Is CGN junior or senior and what equipment is based there. Would love to be there if given the opportunity!

CGN has 757s exclusively. It is probably a lot more senior than MEM 57, but not unreachable. It looks like most junior FO is Seniority #4699, so a fairly recent hire. There is turnover so I am sure you could get it in a couple of years, if not sooner.

Check6Viper 04-29-2018 08:19 AM


Originally Posted by Fdxlag2 (Post 2582541)
CGN has 757s exclusively. It is probably a lot more senior than MEM 57, but not unreachable. It looks like most junior FO is Seniority #4699, so a fairly recent hire. There is turnover so I am sure you could get it in a couple of years, if not sooner.

I think there are still occasionally CGN 757s offered to new hires. On this last bid anybody not seat locked could hold it. If I wanted CGN right off the bat, I would email the indoc scheduling folks and let them know your preference, and they might be as to move your date around a little to get you a slot.

More about timing than seniority I think.

Fdxlag2 04-29-2018 09:18 AM


Originally Posted by Check6Viper (Post 2582580)
I think there are still occasionally CGN 757s offered to new hires. On this last bid anybody not seat locked could hold it. If I wanted CGN right off the bat, I would email the indoc scheduling folks and let them know your preference, and they might be as to move your date around a little to get you a slot.

More about timing than seniority I think.

Probably right, and since the majority of new hires are going to the 57, they probably wouldn’t need to move your class date very far. I didn’t think the seat lock applied to the FDAs?

Check 6 04-29-2018 10:04 AM


Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 2580968)


FedEx DOES NOT want you commuting directly into long haul flights. Meaning, you need to come in the night or day before your long hault flight checks in and have "crew rest." I put the quotes around crew rest because those words are not in the CBA. Unlike the other major airlines where 95% of the pilots domiciled in the NYC bases and others commute directly into a long haul flights, FedEx prohibits you from using FedEx aircraft jumpseats for jumpseating to the AOC and then immediately signing in for a long haul flight.

Simply untrue! What they want and what is legal are two separate things. I have done this very thing numerous times. You are not pay protected, but you can do this. JS is NOT duty time. Period. Now, if you are on probation and do this...they can fire you. But they can fire you for anything during probation.

Stick to facts:mad:

FXLAX 04-29-2018 10:43 AM


Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2582476)
OK, based on that "rule,":rolleyes: you can't jump in the night before A reserve or the morning before B reserve. You can't jump in just before starting a hotel standby, and possibly can't jump in from the west coast to start a trip the operates back to the west coast.

Why aren't you listing all of those restrictions as well? I know, because they don't exist. You can jump in whenever you like, you just aren't protected from discipline.

There is no rule against jumping in the night before a long haul departure. I've done it many times and will do it again. And you are correct in stating that the company doesn't actively look for it, but they were actively looking at your buddy. Why?


Why is there a distinction on what is a protected Jumpseat commute? Why aren’t all Jumpseat commutes protected from discipline?

pinseeker 04-29-2018 11:09 AM


Originally Posted by FXLAX (Post 2582663)
Why is there a distinction on what is a protected Jumpseat commute? Why aren’t all Jumpseat commutes protected from discipline?

Because, unlike the pax carriers, we only have two launches a day at most. If you are jumping in at night to start an a.m. launch, what do you have as a back-up to get to work? What other airline allows you to jumpseat into work without a backup and if you miss your flight, it's ok? Would you prefer the standard of having to have at least one back-up flight to jumpseat in on that arrives before your trip? How would that work in MEM when most of the arrivals get in after 11 pm? Is there a pax carrier that you could use for a back-up?

FXLAX 04-29-2018 12:22 PM

Fedex Hiring Part II
 

Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2582684)
Because, unlike the pax carriers, we only have two launches a day at most. If you are jumping in at night to start an a.m. launch, what do you have as a back-up to get to work? What other airline allows you to jumpseat into work without a backup and if you miss your flight, it's ok? Would you prefer the standard of having to have at least one back-up flight to jumpseat in on that arrives before your trip? How would that work in MEM when most of the arrivals get in after 11 pm? Is there a pax carrier that you could use for a back-up?


So why is there a rule for domestic and not international? Whatever it is that the best practice is, why isn’t that a rule in the contract? Why only have one and not the other?

PS. To answer your first question, my previous airline had a commuter clause in the contract that allowed us to commute with just one flight. But it only allowed three failed commutes in the last 12 months. If you gave yourself one backup, you can have unlimited failed commutes. Of course, you don’t get paid if you dont make your trip. Here is the language:

A pilot commuting by air must choose one of the following:
(1) One (1) flight to the airport at which his assignment originates with a seat available for sale to the public or an available jumpseat not more than thirty-six (36) hours but not less than twenty-four (24) hours in advance of the scheduled departure time for the flight he expects to use to commute to work (his “commuting flight”).
(2) Two (2) flights to the airport at which his assignment originates witha seat available for sale to the public or an available jumpseat within thirty-six (36) hours in advance of the scheduled departure time for the flight he expects to use to commute to work (his “commuting flight”). The commuting flight must be scheduled to arrive at least fifteen (15)minutes before his assigned report time or beginning of his reserve on-call period. However, if customs clearance is required the flight must be scheduled to arrive at least sixty (60) minutes before the pilot’s assigned report time or beginning of his reserve on-call period.
f. A commuting pilot must comply with each carrier’s pass travel and/or jumpseat policy.

StarClipper 04-29-2018 12:24 PM


Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 2582684)
Because, unlike the pax carriers, we only have two launches a day at most. If you are jumping in at night to start an a.m. launch, what do you have as a back-up to get to work? What other airline allows you to jumpseat into work without a backup and if you miss your flight, it's ok? Would you prefer the standard of having to have at least one back-up flight to jumpseat in on that arrives before your trip? How would that work in MEM when most of the arrivals get in after 11 pm? Is there a pax carrier that you could use for a back-up?

You guys need to stop justifying BS, if you start you commute at 9am on Pax carrier but got bump or Flight cancel for WX. Fast forward to 9pm you are now a company jet which was your last resort, why should you be protected when you can prove you have yourself 6+ flights to make it to work. The union need to negotiate the language such that if you gave yourself at least 3 Flight that would get you to work by show time regardless if it’s company or pax you must be protected.

BlueMoon 04-29-2018 12:31 PM


Originally Posted by StarClipper (Post 2582730)
You guys need to stop justifying BS, if you start you commute at 9am on Pax carrier but got bump or Flight cancel for WX. Fast forward to 9pm you are now a company jet which was your last resort, why should you be protected when you can prove you have yourself 6+ flights to make it to work. The union need to negotiate the language such that if you gave yourself at least 3 Flight that would get you to work by show time regardless if it’s company or pax you must be protected.

If we insisted on changing it I would just say just drop the current 13:30 from show of JS to duty off requirement and keep the 90 minutes from arrival to show time.

I don't want to have to come in 10 hours early on a pax airline as the first attempt. Plus it puts people without a direct flight at a large disadvantage. You could get stuck connecting and not have a FX js to back you up.

There are reserves, if you miss your flight it gets covered by a reserve and you don't get paid. The flights here rarely cancel, and I have come in the night prior when I knew there was a weather event that might effect me getting to work. If guys don't want to risk it and come in early that is choice the individual can make.

FXLAX 04-29-2018 12:40 PM

Fedex Hiring Part II
 

Originally Posted by BlueMoon (Post 2582734)
If we insisted on changing it I would just say just drop the current 13:30 from show of JS to duty off requirement and keep the 90 minutes from arrival to show time.

I don't want to have to come in 10 hours early on a pax airline as the first attempt. Plus it puts people without a direct flight at a large disadvantage. You could get stuck connecting and not have a FX js to back you up.

There are reserves, if you miss your flight it gets covered by a reserve and you don't get paid. The flights here rarely cancel, and I have come in the night prior when I knew there was a weather event that might effect me getting to work. If guys don't want to risk it and come in early that is choice the individual can make.


Having this supposed rule you assume would be negotiated versus the status quo (no commute protection) wouldn’t change anything for those not choosing to use the protection negotiated. You would simply keep doing what you are doing now and not have any protection. But for those that avail themselves of any negotiated protection would benefit from it.

In other words, it can only help to have commuter protection language for international, reserve, deviation, etc. If you rather commute on your own plan, it’s on you, just like it is now for everything except commuting to domestic flight on FX JS with 13:30 and 1:30.

Doesn’t seem like a difficult concept to me.

StarClipper 04-29-2018 01:58 PM

That 13:30 is ridiculous


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