CBA 2015 Lessons learned
03-13-2019, 09:05 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by kronan
OMG, Pinseeker
Perhaps you should be renamed.
Again, Quoting from the book of CBA 8.C.1.d.iv
Final deviation check-in may be accomplished if the deviating
pilot joins the Company scheduled deadhead(s) and, as a
result, he will arrive at the point of origin of the pilot’s first revenue
flight or standby period as if the pilot had not deviated.
Upon arrival at the departure gate of the scheduled deadhead
flight, the pilot shall check-in with VIPS, or CRS if VIPS is not
accessible, and indicate that he is in position for the scheduled
deadhead flight. Once this check-in has been accomplished,
the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating,
for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip
services.
Example: The scheduled deadhead travel is MEM-ATL-CDG.
The pilot deviates and obtains a ticket to join the scheduled
ATL-CDG flight. Final deviation check-in may be accomplished
upon arrival at the departure gate for the CDG flight in
the ATL airport.
Yes, I voted Yes for TA2015. Yes, there ARE improvements in CBA2015. And, this one you just can't seem to acknowledge is One of them.
Can't see any other reason to attempt to Confuse the Issue.
YES, if by Proponent of the VB plan you mean.
Same Earnings Cap Traditional A plan is superior to the A plan (Something I've said many, many times)
VB Plan results are Better than our current A plan. (Where it's not, is for people who only work 70% of their Lines and Plan to work 100% at the END of their Career to get their Average Earnings Up....See Traditional Better than the year by year)
Whether I vote Yes on TA 202X is still TBD.
As I said back in 2015, the main reason I voted for TA 2015 is that I was involved in more than One discussion with people who were of the opinion that ALL Newhires should simply get a Big B plan while OUR A plan is fixed. That we have NO obligation to any future newhires.
(Another thing I have said Repeatedly is that Even our "Frozen" A plan is superior to a Big B plan)
Perhaps you should be renamed.
Again, Quoting from the book of CBA 8.C.1.d.iv
Final deviation check-in may be accomplished if the deviating
pilot joins the Company scheduled deadhead(s) and, as a
result, he will arrive at the point of origin of the pilot’s first revenue
flight or standby period as if the pilot had not deviated.
Upon arrival at the departure gate of the scheduled deadhead
flight, the pilot shall check-in with VIPS, or CRS if VIPS is not
accessible, and indicate that he is in position for the scheduled
deadhead flight. Once this check-in has been accomplished,
the pilot shall no longer be considered as deviating,
for the purposes of subsequent delays, revisions, and all trip
services.
Example: The scheduled deadhead travel is MEM-ATL-CDG.
The pilot deviates and obtains a ticket to join the scheduled
ATL-CDG flight. Final deviation check-in may be accomplished
upon arrival at the departure gate for the CDG flight in
the ATL airport.
Yes, I voted Yes for TA2015. Yes, there ARE improvements in CBA2015. And, this one you just can't seem to acknowledge is One of them.
Can't see any other reason to attempt to Confuse the Issue.
YES, if by Proponent of the VB plan you mean.
Same Earnings Cap Traditional A plan is superior to the A plan (Something I've said many, many times)
VB Plan results are Better than our current A plan. (Where it's not, is for people who only work 70% of their Lines and Plan to work 100% at the END of their Career to get their Average Earnings Up....See Traditional Better than the year by year)
Whether I vote Yes on TA 202X is still TBD.
As I said back in 2015, the main reason I voted for TA 2015 is that I was involved in more than One discussion with people who were of the opinion that ALL Newhires should simply get a Big B plan while OUR A plan is fixed. That we have NO obligation to any future newhires.
(Another thing I have said Repeatedly is that Even our "Frozen" A plan is superior to a Big B plan)
Like, I called CE to see what they had to say and they like totally agreed with me and said if you deviate on all legs, you are on your own. So, like, so sorry dude. So, like, keep giving those 2 pesos before they like build that wallie thingy. Like,Later Dude/Dudet.
03-15-2019, 12:30 PM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
Originally Posted by pinseeker
Like totally, OMG Kronan.
Like, I called CE to see what they had to say and they like totally agreed with me and said if you deviate on all legs, you are on your own. So, like, so sorry dude. So, like, keep giving those 2 pesos before they like build that wallie thingy. Like,Later Dude/Dudet.
Like, I called CE to see what they had to say and they like totally agreed with me and said if you deviate on all legs, you are on your own. So, like, so sorry dude. So, like, keep giving those 2 pesos before they like build that wallie thingy. Like,Later Dude/Dudet.
But I thought I'd ask CE too.
So, please-to all FedEx Deviants
Hold CRS accountable, make them comply with the Contract. Or, you can be like Pinseeker and allow them to get away with noncompliance.
Hi Kronan,
Thank you for reaching out to Contract Enforcement with your Final Deviation questions. If you meet up with a scheduled deadhead after deviating and complete your final deviation check-in per 8.C.1.d.iv., then you will no longer be considered as deviating, and if the flight delays/cancels, then CRS will have to revise your pairing and get you from DFW to where you are rescheduled to. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 8:53 AM
To: Fedex-Enforcement, FDXMEC
Subject: Final Deviation Question
Good Morning,
As a deviant, it is my understanding that if I am able to join a leg of the originally scheduled deadhead and thus accomplish the Final Check-in that I shall no longer be considered as deviating. That I am no longer, on my own should that flight be cancelled.
There's some internet discussion that my understanding is incorrect.
As an example, say original scheduled DH is MEM-DFW-DEN
My deviation travel is BHM-DFW-DEN. I arrive at the gate in DFW and accomplish my Final Check-in. Subsequent to that, American Airlines has a lengthy delay and eventually cancels the DFW-DEN flight.
What happens to me then?
03-15-2019, 12:56 PM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: FDX 767 FO
Posts: 817
Originally Posted by kronan
The depressing part of the Internet is how many people persist in their ignorance.
But I thought I'd ask CE too.
So, please-to all FedEx Deviants
Hold CRS accountable, make them comply with the Contract. Or, you can be like Pinseeker and allow them to get away with noncompliance.
Hi Kronan,
Thank you for reaching out to Contract Enforcement with your Final Deviation questions. If you meet up with a scheduled deadhead after deviating and complete your final deviation check-in per 8.C.1.d.iv., then you will no longer be considered as deviating, and if the flight delays/cancels, then CRS will have to revise your pairing and get you from DFW to where you are rescheduled to. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 8:53 AM
To: Fedex-Enforcement, FDXMEC
Subject: Final Deviation Question
Good Morning,
As a deviant, it is my understanding that if I am able to join a leg of the originally scheduled deadhead and thus accomplish the Final Check-in that I shall no longer be considered as deviating. That I am no longer, on my own should that flight be cancelled.
There's some internet discussion that my understanding is incorrect.
As an example, say original scheduled DH is MEM-DFW-DEN
My deviation travel is BHM-DFW-DEN. I arrive at the gate in DFW and accomplish my Final Check-in. Subsequent to that, American Airlines has a lengthy delay and eventually cancels the DFW-DEN flight.
What happens to me then?
But I thought I'd ask CE too.
So, please-to all FedEx Deviants
Hold CRS accountable, make them comply with the Contract. Or, you can be like Pinseeker and allow them to get away with noncompliance.
Hi Kronan,
Thank you for reaching out to Contract Enforcement with your Final Deviation questions. If you meet up with a scheduled deadhead after deviating and complete your final deviation check-in per 8.C.1.d.iv., then you will no longer be considered as deviating, and if the flight delays/cancels, then CRS will have to revise your pairing and get you from DFW to where you are rescheduled to. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 8:53 AM
To: Fedex-Enforcement, FDXMEC
Subject: Final Deviation Question
Good Morning,
As a deviant, it is my understanding that if I am able to join a leg of the originally scheduled deadhead and thus accomplish the Final Check-in that I shall no longer be considered as deviating. That I am no longer, on my own should that flight be cancelled.
There's some internet discussion that my understanding is incorrect.
As an example, say original scheduled DH is MEM-DFW-DEN
My deviation travel is BHM-DFW-DEN. I arrive at the gate in DFW and accomplish my Final Check-in. Subsequent to that, American Airlines has a lengthy delay and eventually cancels the DFW-DEN flight.
What happens to me then?
Please reply to them and ask this.
“What if I originally deviated from both legs and then, due to changes after the fact, I choose to join the second original leg. Can I accomplish my final check in prior to the second originally scheduled leg even though I originally deviated off of it?”
I predict you’ll get a different answer as they might be assuming you accomplished what they see as the proper way to do it and left the second box unchecked.
I hope I’m wrong but we’ll see.
03-15-2019, 01:00 PM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by kronan
The depressing part of the Internet is how many people persist in their ignorance.
But I thought I'd ask CE too.
So, please-to all FedEx Deviants
Hold CRS accountable, make them comply with the Contract. Or, you can be like Pinseeker and allow them to get away with noncompliance.
Hi Kronan,
Thank you for reaching out to Contract Enforcement with your Final Deviation questions. If you meet up with a scheduled deadhead after deviating and complete your final deviation check-in per 8.C.1.d.iv., then you will no longer be considered as deviating, and if the flight delays/cancels, then CRS will have to revise your pairing and get you from DFW to where you are rescheduled to. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 8:53 AM
To: Fedex-Enforcement, FDXMEC
Subject: Final Deviation Question
Good Morning,
As a deviant, it is my understanding that if I am able to join a leg of the originally scheduled deadhead and thus accomplish the Final Check-in that I shall no longer be considered as deviating. That I am no longer, on my own should that flight be cancelled.
There's some internet discussion that my understanding is incorrect.
As an example, say original scheduled DH is MEM-DFW-DEN
My deviation travel is BHM-DFW-DEN. I arrive at the gate in DFW and accomplish my Final Check-in. Subsequent to that, American Airlines has a lengthy delay and eventually cancels the DFW-DEN flight.
What happens to me then?
But I thought I'd ask CE too.
So, please-to all FedEx Deviants
Hold CRS accountable, make them comply with the Contract. Or, you can be like Pinseeker and allow them to get away with noncompliance.
Hi Kronan,
Thank you for reaching out to Contract Enforcement with your Final Deviation questions. If you meet up with a scheduled deadhead after deviating and complete your final deviation check-in per 8.C.1.d.iv., then you will no longer be considered as deviating, and if the flight delays/cancels, then CRS will have to revise your pairing and get you from DFW to where you are rescheduled to. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 8:53 AM
To: Fedex-Enforcement, FDXMEC
Subject: Final Deviation Question
Good Morning,
As a deviant, it is my understanding that if I am able to join a leg of the originally scheduled deadhead and thus accomplish the Final Check-in that I shall no longer be considered as deviating. That I am no longer, on my own should that flight be cancelled.
There's some internet discussion that my understanding is incorrect.
As an example, say original scheduled DH is MEM-DFW-DEN
My deviation travel is BHM-DFW-DEN. I arrive at the gate in DFW and accomplish my Final Check-in. Subsequent to that, American Airlines has a lengthy delay and eventually cancels the DFW-DEN flight.
What happens to me then?
I asked if I deviated on all legs and then changed my mind, would I be able to just show up for the scheduled leg and if something happened, I would be protected. Their answer was no, if you deviate on all legs, you are on your own for any legs you actually deviated on.
Try again. No one is disputing the scenario you presented to CE.
03-15-2019, 01:04 PM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
Originally Posted by pinseeker
Ask a leading question and you will get the answer you want. So who is ignorant?
I asked if I deviated on all legs and then changed my mind, would I be able to just show up for the scheduled leg and if something happened, I would be protected. Their answer wan no, if you deviate on all legs, you are on your own for any legs you actually deviated on.
Try again.
I asked if I deviated on all legs and then changed my mind, would I be able to just show up for the scheduled leg and if something happened, I would be protected. Their answer wan no, if you deviate on all legs, you are on your own for any legs you actually deviated on.
Try again.
It is the Final Check-in that matters.
In my example, if you lived in Dallas and just Checked the box for the MEM-DFW leg...there won't be a DFW-DEN leg for you to fly. You have to make your own, stand alone reservation by purchasing a Deviation ticket.
And if you Never make it to the Gate in DFW because of a traffic accident, oversleep, flat tire...you're still On Your Own.
You only become protected After making your Final Deviation check-in.
03-15-2019, 01:25 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by kronan
You Can't just Deviate off of One Leg. The "Scheduled" Leg goes away whether you click one box or two.
It is the Final Check-in that matters.
In my example, if you lived in Dallas and just Checked the box for the MEM-DFW leg...there won't be a DFW-DEN leg for you to fly. You have to make your own, stand alone reservation by purchasing a Deviation ticket.
And if you Never make it to the Gate in DFW because of a traffic accident, oversleep, flat tire...you're still On Your Own.
You only become protected After making your Final Deviation check-in.
It is the Final Check-in that matters.
In my example, if you lived in Dallas and just Checked the box for the MEM-DFW leg...there won't be a DFW-DEN leg for you to fly. You have to make your own, stand alone reservation by purchasing a Deviation ticket.
And if you Never make it to the Gate in DFW because of a traffic accident, oversleep, flat tire...you're still On Your Own.
You only become protected After making your Final Deviation check-in.
According to what has been said here, I could have a DH from MEM to BOS. I could deviate on that leg. The day before, I could see that BOS is going to have bad weather and change my mind and decide to book the original MEM to BOS leg. According to you, I could just check in at the gate in MEM and if that flight got canceled, I am protected and it's up to CRS to get me to BOS. I have said that once you deviate on a leg, you are responsible for that leg. Some have said it doesn't matter what you check, you can just show up for the scheduled leg even if you deviated on it. I disagreed, and CE told me that they agreed with me.
If it doesn't matter which boxes you check for deviation, why did they add the second box? Before this contract, there was only one box to check which said you were deviating on all legs. Now you get to choose which legs you deviate on. It makes sense that when you deviate on the first leg, the company can't just cancel the first leg and keep the second, that's not how the tickets are booked. They are booked from origin to destination as one reservation, not two separate reservations from MEM-DFW and then DFW-DEN.
Do what you want, I hope it always works out for you.
03-15-2019, 02:14 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
And somehow....
Again, Feel free to not hold CRS feet to the CBA Compliance fire, as far too many of our pilots do. Pilots who are simply ignorant of the CBA or don't want to "highlight" themselves choose the go along to get along.
As for me....
So we do normally advise pilots to not check the second box if they’re anticipating meeting up with their scheduled deadhead. However, the contract only says that (loosely paraphrased) that when a pilot meets up with their scheduled deadhead and completes their Final Deviation Check-in, that they will no longer be considered as deviating. Therefore, even if a pilot were to have checked both boxes, and the flight were to delay/cancel then it is ALPA’s position that a pilot is no longer deviating, and Scheduling must revise the pilot’s schedule in a legal manner, and if that’s not what occurs, then we would be willing to go to the Company and fight that on the pilot’s behalf. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Regards,
Ashley
From: <kronan>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:08 PM
To: Davis, Ashley, FDXMEC
Subject: Re: Final Deviation Question
My apologies,
follow up question for the Internet Idiots. Of whom I assume you deal with all too frequently. No earthly idea why someone thinks I can click One Box in the Deviation section of PFC and somehow retain the scheduled second leg
I don’t disagree with their answer to the question you asked because of the way you asked it. I thought the rub was on originally deviating from both legs (both boxes checked) and then joining the second original leg after that.
Please reply to them and ask this.
“What if I originally deviated from both legs and then, due to changes after the fact, I choose to join the second original leg. Can I accomplish my final check in prior to the second originally scheduled leg even though I originally deviated off of it?”
I predict you’ll get a different answer as they might be assuming you accomplished what they see as the proper way to do it and left the second box unchecked.
I hope I’m wrong but we’ll see.
Again, Feel free to not hold CRS feet to the CBA Compliance fire, as far too many of our pilots do. Pilots who are simply ignorant of the CBA or don't want to "highlight" themselves choose the go along to get along.
As for me....
So we do normally advise pilots to not check the second box if they’re anticipating meeting up with their scheduled deadhead. However, the contract only says that (loosely paraphrased) that when a pilot meets up with their scheduled deadhead and completes their Final Deviation Check-in, that they will no longer be considered as deviating. Therefore, even if a pilot were to have checked both boxes, and the flight were to delay/cancel then it is ALPA’s position that a pilot is no longer deviating, and Scheduling must revise the pilot’s schedule in a legal manner, and if that’s not what occurs, then we would be willing to go to the Company and fight that on the pilot’s behalf. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Regards,
Ashley
From: <kronan>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:08 PM
To: Davis, Ashley, FDXMEC
Subject: Re: Final Deviation Question
My apologies,
follow up question for the Internet Idiots. Of whom I assume you deal with all too frequently. No earthly idea why someone thinks I can click One Box in the Deviation section of PFC and somehow retain the scheduled second leg
I don’t disagree with their answer to the question you asked because of the way you asked it. I thought the rub was on originally deviating from both legs (both boxes checked) and then joining the second original leg after that.
Please reply to them and ask this.
“What if I originally deviated from both legs and then, due to changes after the fact, I choose to join the second original leg. Can I accomplish my final check in prior to the second originally scheduled leg even though I originally deviated off of it?”
I predict you’ll get a different answer as they might be assuming you accomplished what they see as the proper way to do it and left the second box unchecked.
I hope I’m wrong but we’ll see.
03-15-2019, 03:23 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: FDX 767 FO
Posts: 817
Originally Posted by kronan
And somehow....
Again, Feel free to not hold CRS feet to the CBA Compliance fire, as far too many of our pilots do. Pilots who are simply ignorant of the CBA or don't want to "highlight" themselves choose the go along to get along.
As for me....
So we do normally advise pilots to not check the second box if they’re anticipating meeting up with their scheduled deadhead. However, the contract only says that (loosely paraphrased) that when a pilot meets up with their scheduled deadhead and completes their Final Deviation Check-in, that they will no longer be considered as deviating. Therefore, even if a pilot were to have checked both boxes, and the flight were to delay/cancel then it is ALPA’s position that a pilot is no longer deviating, and Scheduling must revise the pilot’s schedule in a legal manner, and if that’s not what occurs, then we would be willing to go to the Company and fight that on the pilot’s behalf. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Regards,
Ashley
From: <kronan>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:08 PM
To: Davis, Ashley, FDXMEC
Subject: Re: Final Deviation Question
My apologies,
follow up question for the Internet Idiots. Of whom I assume you deal with all too frequently. No earthly idea why someone thinks I can click One Box in the Deviation section of PFC and somehow retain the scheduled second leg
I don’t disagree with their answer to the question you asked because of the way you asked it. I thought the rub was on originally deviating from both legs (both boxes checked) and then joining the second original leg after that.
Please reply to them and ask this.
“What if I originally deviated from both legs and then, due to changes after the fact, I choose to join the second original leg. Can I accomplish my final check in prior to the second originally scheduled leg even though I originally deviated off of it?”
I predict you’ll get a different answer as they might be assuming you accomplished what they see as the proper way to do it and left the second box unchecked.
I hope I’m wrong but we’ll see.
Again, Feel free to not hold CRS feet to the CBA Compliance fire, as far too many of our pilots do. Pilots who are simply ignorant of the CBA or don't want to "highlight" themselves choose the go along to get along.
As for me....
So we do normally advise pilots to not check the second box if they’re anticipating meeting up with their scheduled deadhead. However, the contract only says that (loosely paraphrased) that when a pilot meets up with their scheduled deadhead and completes their Final Deviation Check-in, that they will no longer be considered as deviating. Therefore, even if a pilot were to have checked both boxes, and the flight were to delay/cancel then it is ALPA’s position that a pilot is no longer deviating, and Scheduling must revise the pilot’s schedule in a legal manner, and if that’s not what occurs, then we would be willing to go to the Company and fight that on the pilot’s behalf. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Regards,
Ashley
From: <kronan>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2019 4:08 PM
To: Davis, Ashley, FDXMEC
Subject: Re: Final Deviation Question
My apologies,
follow up question for the Internet Idiots. Of whom I assume you deal with all too frequently. No earthly idea why someone thinks I can click One Box in the Deviation section of PFC and somehow retain the scheduled second leg
I don’t disagree with their answer to the question you asked because of the way you asked it. I thought the rub was on originally deviating from both legs (both boxes checked) and then joining the second original leg after that.
Please reply to them and ask this.
“What if I originally deviated from both legs and then, due to changes after the fact, I choose to join the second original leg. Can I accomplish my final check in prior to the second originally scheduled leg even though I originally deviated off of it?”
I predict you’ll get a different answer as they might be assuming you accomplished what they see as the proper way to do it and left the second box unchecked.
I hope I’m wrong but we’ll see.
I just wish we could see the quote below more often.
“then we would be willing to go to the Company and fight that on the pilot’s behalf.”
I bet the guy on Jetflyers trying to get reimbursed for his single segment $53 seat upgrade fee would like to see that quote used to help CE know what “greater of” means. CE doesn’t push back enough which is why you’ll find people not beilieveng the words in front of them in the CBA. Everyone has a story where they shake their head in disbelief when CE agrees with the company.
Thanks again for the legwork.
Signed,
Internet Idiot apparently....
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