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Business vs Safety fuel

Old 07-22-2018, 05:02 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
That said if we do as they wish and the resultant is truly more diversions will that not result in a modification or a cancellation of this policy? Thats not a rhetorical question either.
It will result in more and they expect that. The question is if it results in more than they are willing to accept. Someone somewhere has a target cost of diversions for us to average over a period of time. The total cost of the service failure, fuel, extra crew pay, etc. is the metric. If we exceed that number then the plan is modified. If the number isn’t exceeded or a subsequent modification can’t hit at or below the target, the plan is a failure. I wonder if paid bonuses for the plan’s creator and manager are considered in that metric? 😳

That’s my 1.94 cents. It was two cents last year but....inflation😜
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Old 07-22-2018, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyBoyd View Post
It will result in more and they expect that. The question is if it results in more than they are willing to accept. Someone somewhere has a target cost of diversions for us to average over a period of time. The total cost of the service failure, fuel, extra crew pay, etc. is the metric. If we exceed that number then the plan is modified. If the number isn’t exceeded or a subsequent modification can’t hit at or below the target, the plan is a failure. I wonder if paid bonuses for the plan’s creator and manager are considered in that metric?



That’s my 1.94 cents. It was two cents last year but....inflation


This. Spot on.
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Old 07-22-2018, 06:19 PM
  #23  
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My 2 cents from a retired guy. If you feel you need the fuel, add it. If you signed for the jet, do what you need to do get where you're supposed to go using YOUR best judgement. Why have a puckered AH for hours on end wondering if you'll have to divert or land on fumes. It's just not worth it. Do you really want to deal with a divert after a mega-hour day?

MG2
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:27 AM
  #24  
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1st-extra landing Pay can’t be denied by calling a flight a sweep flight. Every bidpack has flights that are Designated Sweep flights, in writing. By flight number and departure city. Should you be on flight 1234 (PDX) and divert...just because flight 1234 (OAK) is a sweep flight doesn’t mean you are.
I could see CrewPay claiming you diverted for weather, but there’s a way to see historical Weather and after a bit of back and forth would like to think even CrewPay would admit defeat when shown a weather history that allowed landing.

2nd Ops Emergency...if I’m hub turning, and divert for fuel I’m still going to be within duty limits.
If I’m already Operational (think Indy hub turns) than the DO can reach down to a Single Pilot and waive the magical FAR wand...and they’ve been able to do so in every FedEx CBA

That Doesn’t mean I have to accept it. If I was really counting on a hub turn nap and a fuel stop eliminated that time...then by God I’m going to contact the DO and say I need 90 minutes or 2 hours to grab a nap and then I’m happy to fly my scheduled flight...or you can remove me as fatigued.

I don’t care what scheduling thinks. I don’t care what the DO thinks. The only person that determines my fitness to fly is me.
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Old 07-23-2018, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
1st-extra landing Pay can’t be denied by calling a flight a sweep flight. Every bidpack has flights that are Designated Sweep flights, in writing. By flight number and departure city. Should you be on flight 1234 (PDX) and divert...just because flight 1234 (OAK) is a sweep flight doesn’t mean you are.
I could see CrewPay claiming you diverted for weather, but there’s a way to see historical Weather and after a bit of back and forth would like to think even CrewPay would admit defeat when shown a weather history that allowed landing.

2nd Ops Emergency...if I’m hub turning, and divert for fuel I’m still going to be within duty limits.
If I’m already Operational (think Indy hub turns) than the DO can reach down to a Single Pilot and waive the magical FAR wand...and they’ve been able to do so in every FedEx CBA

That Doesn’t mean I have to accept it. If I was really counting on a hub turn nap and a fuel stop eliminated that time...then by God I’m going to contact the DO and say I need 90 minutes or 2 hours to grab a nap and then I’m happy to fly my scheduled flight...or you can remove me as fatigued.

I don’t care what scheduling thinks. I don’t care what the DO thinks. The only person that determines my fitness to fly is me.
Except it's pretty unlikely that you'll be fortunate enough to get to divert to Memphis, Indy, or anywhere that you can have a sleep room or even a quiet place with a recliner. Maybe you're planning on catching a nap in the airplane? Because as long as it takes them to find us a hotel, that's probably not an option for a few hours. One can demand to lay over, however, waiting for them to figure out hotel and transportation, while giving you a min layover, many people will just do the extra leg instead. Also very possible that you'll be diverting along with many others, enduring the hassle that comes with it. Pretending that it's just simple as can be is ridiculous.
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Old 07-23-2018, 05:27 PM
  #26  
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MEM Inbounds: Captains, refer to the “Fuel Matrix”, then contact GOC to request either ‘The Blue Pill’ or “The Red Pill”.
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:58 PM
  #27  
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Since I began consistently flying international at FedEx, it's been a rare event that I've felt uncomfortable with the fuel load under the old policy. Supplemental and then Flag ops, including flights with the B043 reserves on the MD-11 followed by the 777, it just wasn't usually an issue.

With the limited experience I've had so far using the new policy not much has changed. We still carry a lot of fuel. Maybe the "business fuel" decision based on the priority of our international freight is driving this. So far, there's always been at least an extra 5K (25-30 min) of RPF and DX fuel "below the line" in addition to required. Within the required, I'm seeing 15-45 min of either hold, contingency or a combination. The biggest surprise is seeing the emergency fuel number drop from a hard 9K to the low 6000s based on the situation. I'd be curious to see what the initial trend is like on the domestic side.

The cynic in me might say that this may trend down as they slowly wean us off our old policy and move closer to their target of 70 minutes FOD. But, I'll reserve judgement for now.

The LMS training we received and the various written communiques sent by management have been pretty consistent. They want to do a better job tailoring the fuel loads and want us to be a part of that process. I really don't have a problem with that.

The JH fleet update that sparked this thread was the first time I have seen someone take a slightly different direction. To quote him directly:
"In other words, the majority of the business reliability planning now resides in the dispatcher obligation arena."

To put his point in a nutshell - Captains (and dispatchers) are now responsible for ensuring the fuel load meets FAR requirements. Beyond that, Captains can suggest additional fuel might be required to help ensure we meet our business obligations by landing at our intended destination on time. However, according to him, that's not safety related. So, if dispatch (with the help of the payload planners) decide the business risk isn't worth the extra fuel cost, they are going to deny the request for more fuel.

Maybe he was just being a little more direct than the rest of the crowd has been during the rollout of this new policy or maybe he went a little off the reservation. Hard to say. But, let's assume for the moment that the examples he used and the points he made in his letter give us a look at what we can expect in terms of the dispatcher-Captain collaboration going forward.
My interpretation of his message is that once we (as Captains or future Captains) determine our flight plan fuel complies with the FARs, that part of our job is done. Actually landing at our intended destination is no longer our responsibility and therefore, since we have the FAR fuel to divert, we are "safe". Asking for more using the "safety card" is not possible, since according to JH, FAR/fuel policy = safe. So, we take the fuel load with which we are provided and make the best and safest effort we can to get to our intended destination.

Obviously when we choose to abandon that effort is 100% our call and that will never change. Maybe now, without the additional fuel requested, some crews might find themselves diverting preemptively before they even poke their nose into the MEM, IND, CDG, or CAN fray if it looks bad enough.
According to JH, taking all possible measures to ensure landing at our intended destination on time is sometimes going to be subservient to fuel savings. That can be a difficult shift in mindset for the typical type-A pilot. I'll be curious to see how this plays out going forward. So far, it's pretty much a non-event on the 777. But, my risk tolerance isn't going to change just because the company may be willing to accept a higher risk that they're going to disappoint their customers more frequently.
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Old 07-24-2018, 06:10 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by busdriver12 View Post
Except it's pretty unlikely that you'll be fortunate enough to get to divert to Memphis, Indy, or anywhere that you can have a sleep room or even a quiet place with a recliner. Maybe you're planning on catching a nap in the airplane? Because as long as it takes them to find us a hotel, that's probably not an option for a few hours. One can demand to lay over, however, waiting for them to figure out hotel and transportation, while giving you a min layover, many people will just do the extra leg instead. Also very possible that you'll be diverting along with many others, enduring the hassle that comes with it. Pretending that it's just simple as can be is ridiculous.
Maybe you missed the whole grabbing a nap during the hub turn thing.
You know, an opportunity to do so that might be disrupted by a fuel stop.

Can’t imagine why anyone would want to leave the plane, get a sleep room, nap in a recliner during a fuel stop.

Perfect world, ramp I’m going to would know I’m on the way-have already called for fuel...and, it’s not like I’m going to need to fill up the tanks to complete the flight.

But now that I’ve made it to Memphis for my hub turn...what then.
If I need a nap, I’m either getting a brief nap or being removed for fatigue.
And I don’t care what other people do.

With 100% certainty I can say there are people at FedEx who fly fatigued or sick occasionally. Why they choose to risk the remaining 5-10-20 years of their careers escapes me.
All you have to do is read our TLH mishap report to learn that FedEx is a very Fatigue Friendly company and if Only the Capt had spoken up we would’ve Replaced him....
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Old 07-24-2018, 01:54 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
Maybe you missed the whole grabbing a nap during the hub turn thing.
You know, an opportunity to do so that might be disrupted by a fuel stop.

Can’t imagine why anyone would want to leave the plane, get a sleep room, nap in a recliner during a fuel stop.

Perfect world, ramp I’m going to would know I’m on the way-have already called for fuel...and, it’s not like I’m going to need to fill up the tanks to complete the flight.

But now that I’ve made it to Memphis for my hub turn...what then.
If I need a nap, I’m either getting a brief nap or being removed for fatigue.
And I don’t care what other people do.
Except....you said, "That Doesn’t mean I have to accept it. If I was really counting on a hub turn nap and a fuel stop eliminated that time...then by God I’m going to contact the DO and say I need 90 minutes or 2 hours to grab a nap and then I’m happy to fly my scheduled flight...or you can remove me as fatigued"

We are talking about a diversion. It's unlikely that diversion will be to Memphis where you can grab a nap. And why would you assume your next leg is going to be into Memphis, where you could potentially go to a sleep room? We do fly to other places.

The reality is, if you are diverting when you were planning on going into Memphis, it's likely it will be you and many other FedEx airplanes going to the same airport. You aren't going to be able to just let the inbound ramp know you're going to swoop in there for a quick fuel stop and go on your merry way. Likely you're going to be stuck there with 20 other airplanes, waiting for your turn to get fueled and the weather to improve. It's usually a long, miserable process.

And if you feel the need to call in fatigued, it's not a no penalty decision. The company can decide whether to pay you, or charge your sick bank. Your answer makes me think you've never gone through the unpleasant goat rope that is a diversion.
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:16 PM
  #30  
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Wait.

Sorry to sound like the new guy, but I’m new. There was a lot...I mean, a LOT... of talk at indoc about how calling in fatigued is “no harm-no foul” and not counted against you. You mean they can deduct from your sick bank? How is that “not counting against you” or “non-retribution?”

I don’t even have an opinion yet, it’s just that words mean things and I’m trying to figure out what means what.
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