I think you are spot on. Giving up high 5 changes the whole game. QOL, upgrades, scheduling flexibility will all be negatively affected.

Kronan,
Stop with the expectations and beliefs and ask questions!!!!! This is why we get burned in contract language!

Have you asked PM? Or is no retro just your "expectation"?


I specifically asked during a face to face meeting with PM if Alpa intends to apply the VBP retroactively? It was a very unambiguous question.

Flying Boxes: "Is Alpa planning to negotiate the VBP to be applied retroactively to those with over 25 years of service?"
PM: "Yes."

The most important thing about this is not whether it is retro or not! The question is why has Alpa failed to inform us exactly what the plan is! How can they do a pilot survey to determine if pilots approve this when they have not fully disclosed what they are trying to do? This is a TRUST issue!

Bingo.

Lie flat seats.

Vote no.

Our union lawyers couldn't write good contract language to save their own lives.

And your solution is?

Give up nothing. Add to what we already have via the UPS model.

Fire our current lawyers and hire more accomplished labor attorneys. I would also develop within the P2P ranks a group of pilots who work with the attorneys to stress test all proposed contractual language. It’s time to start reading this language as plain English instead of back room agreements of intention. The company wouldn’t write the language as they do if they didn’t intend to interpret it in the most advantageous way possible.

I.e. lay flat seats, known reserve days, bid for training, etc.




UA

Well is sure isn’t risking our pension.... We lose almost every single battle with the company. Some are really bad deals, but not near as bad as screwing our retirement...

When the pilots of FPA were sold converting to ALPA, we were told two reasons why:

1) A national war chest would be available to us for contract negotiations.

Hmmm....So, how'd that work out for us? "Our" union leadership didn't want to use it, and settled for a below average, messed up, contract.

2) We would have better lawyers to scrub the contract.

Hmmm... I was told we have the same lawyers on staff as the FPA days, and they have proved, over and over, that they can't "tighten up the language" as promised by our union.

If these same lawyers can't get lie flat seats right, give away hotels in lieu of deadheads, and force reserve guys into the PBS VTO system, I don't want them anywhere near my retirement plan.

We had leverage last time around. They were cancelling 10 flights a day near the end. We failed to use it. The company always delays 2 years past the amendable date and runs us out of money. The union needs to stop wasting our money on zoo parties, and other stupid stuff and operate more frugally or vote in a contract negotiating assessment.

Higher B fund and cash over cap would help the retirement problem, but don't give away a sure thing for a pipe dream that is only guaranteed to help the "I've got mine (already) and want more" crowd.

If this passes, everyone will bid seats at 100%, or at least most will. Open time will be gone in a flash, and we will work ourselves to death chasing a good retirement that we "might" get, if our retirement date coincides with a good stock market. Think about that. You can't pick your retirement date if you plan to work to 65. If the market is down starting at say, when you turn 63, and stays down, your little "pancakes" aren't worth squat, and the company and the union won't care in the least.

Our old pre contract retirement replaced a way higher percentage of our income than our current retirement does. At one time our A-plan had a COLA and our LTD plan didn’t cost 3-7k a year in premiums. This whole negotiating contracts isn’t our cup of tea.

Another pro ALPA point over FPA was they had better assets to cost out contract changes while we were at negotiating table to more quickly realize good from bad and when the company negotiators were FOS.

I’ve always thought this is our biggest problem. The contract isn’t scrubbed enough before it is sent to us to vote on it. Not enough what if scenarios are thought through