VB Plan In Current Stock Market
11-24-2018, 01:56 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 245
There should be language in our contract that anything negotiated and voted on outside of section 6 must pass with at least a 75% membership approval. If this thing ever gets to a vote and passes by a very narrow margin can you just imagine how fractured our crew force will be going forward.
Yet our union leadership will all be patting themselves on the backs congratulating each other on what a great job they did.
Yet our union leadership will all be patting themselves on the backs congratulating each other on what a great job they did.
11-24-2018, 03:06 PM
#12
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Sunny1
There should be language in our contract that anything negotiated and voted on outside of section 6 must pass with at least a 75% membership approval. If this thing ever gets to a vote and passes by a very narrow margin can you just imagine how fractured our crew force will be going forward.
Yet our union leadership will all be patting themselves on the backs congratulating each other on what a great job they did.
Yet our union leadership will all be patting themselves on the backs congratulating each other on what a great job they did.
11-24-2018, 03:42 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 245
Originally Posted by Excargodog
Why not CHANGE THE UNION RULES to make it so anything that doesn't pass with a two-thirds majority CANNOT BE SIGNED INTO A CONTRACT. Do that BEFORE negotiations even start and it will incentivize the MEC AND management to negotiate a better deal.
Has this idea ever been proposed to the union?
11-24-2018, 05:09 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: I never did mind the little things.......
Posts: 260
You are exactly correct!!!
Originally Posted by Sunny1
Did I miss something??? All I’ve been hearing and reading about from the union is this new and awesome VBP that is going to be so much better for everyone. Well, everyone except for maybe those hired in their mid 40’s (like myself), but that’s ok, because it benefits anyone with 25 years and a high five, and after all - those are the folks who really need more of a retirement benefit, so it’s definitely a fair trade off - NOT!
Are they now calling it a ‘Pension stabilization Plan’ because they think we’re not smart enough to know the old saying ‘you can put lipstick on a pig, but in the end it’s still a pig’?
I would actually respect our union leadership more if they’d come out and say ‘Hey, we’re going to change the name of this thing to XXX’, and explain why, but to change the name of it with no explanation (at least I haven’t read anything as to why) tells me that they’re feeling desperate to sell this thing.
Hey union leadership, pull your head out of the sand and admit this VRB scheme that Chuck found on the Internet created by someone no one’s ever heard of isn’t the answer. How about you just FIX THE DAMN A PLAN - which is what we were told was possible and affordable during the last round of negotiations. Don’t tell me leaving the A plan alone was a victory because we were able to fend off PBS because guess what? I’ve been living in the VTO/Secondary line world the past 6 months and it sure feels like PBS to me.
Almost everyone I fly with is in their first year, and generally much younger than I was when hired. Not a single one of them has said they support the VRB the union is pushing for - most believe the numbers the union is putting out are unrealistic. It’s just strange to me that I keep hearing generally the same thing from the people I fly with, yet the union keeps saying things that aren’t even close to what I’m hearing. Here’s a great idea - if you want buy in then publish the results of all these surveys, and I mean ALL the results. Don’t pick and chose little bits and pieces to make it appear that the majority of membership support this thing. The union leadership talks about transparency, but then they use words like proprietary, and privileged info to mask things they don’t want us to know because it won’t support what they’re wanting us to believe.
Rant Over ...
Are they now calling it a ‘Pension stabilization Plan’ because they think we’re not smart enough to know the old saying ‘you can put lipstick on a pig, but in the end it’s still a pig’?
I would actually respect our union leadership more if they’d come out and say ‘Hey, we’re going to change the name of this thing to XXX’, and explain why, but to change the name of it with no explanation (at least I haven’t read anything as to why) tells me that they’re feeling desperate to sell this thing.
Hey union leadership, pull your head out of the sand and admit this VRB scheme that Chuck found on the Internet created by someone no one’s ever heard of isn’t the answer. How about you just FIX THE DAMN A PLAN - which is what we were told was possible and affordable during the last round of negotiations. Don’t tell me leaving the A plan alone was a victory because we were able to fend off PBS because guess what? I’ve been living in the VTO/Secondary line world the past 6 months and it sure feels like PBS to me.
Almost everyone I fly with is in their first year, and generally much younger than I was when hired. Not a single one of them has said they support the VRB the union is pushing for - most believe the numbers the union is putting out are unrealistic. It’s just strange to me that I keep hearing generally the same thing from the people I fly with, yet the union keeps saying things that aren’t even close to what I’m hearing. Here’s a great idea - if you want buy in then publish the results of all these surveys, and I mean ALL the results. Don’t pick and chose little bits and pieces to make it appear that the majority of membership support this thing. The union leadership talks about transparency, but then they use words like proprietary, and privileged info to mask things they don’t want us to know because it won’t support what they’re wanting us to believe.
Rant Over ...
11-24-2018, 05:21 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: I never did mind the little things.......
Posts: 260
Alternative - Keep what I have!
Originally Posted by MEMFO4Ever
Still waiting to hear your alternative. Non-union workplace? You stepping up to lead the negotiations?
Or are we going to talk about all the unity and leverage we have in Section 6, again?
Or are we going to talk about all the unity and leverage we have in Section 6, again?
11-25-2018, 04:26 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by MEMFO4Ever
Still waiting to hear your alternative. Non-union workplace? You stepping up to lead the negotiations?
Or are we going to talk about all the unity and leverage we have in Section 6, again?
Or are we going to talk about all the unity and leverage we have in Section 6, again?
After they sell this outside of section 6, maybe they will tell us that we have to accept preferential bidding because the company drew a line in the sand.
11-25-2018, 08:33 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
The proposed plan is a PENSION.
The proposal has the potential for some Benefits if the return on the PENSION assets exceeds the hurdle rate.
As proposed, we would receive the Highest of the cumulative returns or a 2% Floor.
If you don't like the Union model, build your own. It's darn easy to take your salary * 2 percent and then sum the totals. Don't like the Inflation prediction, then build your own. It's darn easy to take the DC limit and then add the 1.5% many of the posters here seem to anticipate for the future.
Don't like the model using Managements predicted upgrade time lines...build your own
As painful as it has been watching my investments recently...to make it simple for Everyone here to compare, painful looking at the ups\downs of my combined 401k\B plan at Vanguard over the past month...I'm still up 3% over the past year. Long term I still, handily, beat the hurdle rate.
The proposed plan ISN'T as good as a High 5 Average with the same Salary limit.
It IS better than our frozen value A plan.
Where the VB wins, is salary in excess of 260 Average, and the ability to exceed 25 YOS.
Where it loses, is for those who work 60% of their line with the expectation of suddenly working 100% during their last few years of flying. Planning to take advantage of the superiority of an Average calculation.
But again, it's a PENSION. The hypothetical Mutual Fund is NOT the $$ used to provide the benefit. But rather the value of the Pension being paid out. Being built year by year, brick by brick, pancake by pancake
The proposal has the potential for some Benefits if the return on the PENSION assets exceeds the hurdle rate.
As proposed, we would receive the Highest of the cumulative returns or a 2% Floor.
If you don't like the Union model, build your own. It's darn easy to take your salary * 2 percent and then sum the totals. Don't like the Inflation prediction, then build your own. It's darn easy to take the DC limit and then add the 1.5% many of the posters here seem to anticipate for the future.
Don't like the model using Managements predicted upgrade time lines...build your own
As painful as it has been watching my investments recently...to make it simple for Everyone here to compare, painful looking at the ups\downs of my combined 401k\B plan at Vanguard over the past month...I'm still up 3% over the past year. Long term I still, handily, beat the hurdle rate.
The proposed plan ISN'T as good as a High 5 Average with the same Salary limit.
It IS better than our frozen value A plan.
Where the VB wins, is salary in excess of 260 Average, and the ability to exceed 25 YOS.
Where it loses, is for those who work 60% of their line with the expectation of suddenly working 100% during their last few years of flying. Planning to take advantage of the superiority of an Average calculation.
But again, it's a PENSION. The hypothetical Mutual Fund is NOT the $$ used to provide the benefit. But rather the value of the Pension being paid out. Being built year by year, brick by brick, pancake by pancake
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