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New Hire ALPA Grievance

Old 05-10-2019, 07:00 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by rvfanatic View Post
It’s interesting that FedEx new hire seniority methods are being scrutinized. I like that FDX and DAL use a random number (last 4 SSN) and don’t age discriminate like AA, UAL, and UPS to determine seniority. I understand the logic that the younger folks have more time to improve seniority over their career. However, that’s still age discriminating since new pilots all walk in the door the same day and time for INDOC (at AA and UAL) and they are rank ordered based on their birth date.

IMHO, FDX is speeding with their split class method (much like UPS) and hopefully they get called on it. Non standard policies that exist to benefit the company seem like reasonable issues to grieve. The idea that said pilot gets **** on relentlessly for calling them on this is absurd. Maybe he’s actually content on the MD now, but wants to make it better for other new hires behind him? I have no clue, don’t know him, so I’ll keep an open mind and let the grievance take its course.
I don’t see how they’re speeding. Their date of hire is one day prior and they’re senior to everyone that gets hired the next day. If you didn’t like it, tell the company you’d rather not fly the MD11 and wait for a later class date when you can pick what your seniority will hold.

I really don’t see an issue here. Again, I’ve hoped the union would be a lot stronger and challenge the company when it comes to our CBA. I just see this as a complete waste of time and money.
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:20 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by rvfanatic View Post
It’s interesting that FedEx new hire seniority methods are being scrutinized. I like that FDX and DAL use a random number (last 4 SSN) and don’t age discriminate like AA, UAL, and UPS to determine seniority. I understand the logic that the younger folks have more time to improve seniority over their career. However, that’s still age discriminating since new pilots all walk in the door the same day and time for INDOC (at AA and UAL) and they are rank ordered based on their birth date.

IMHO, FDX is speeding with their split class method (much like UPS) and hopefully they get called on it. Non standard policies that exist to benefit the company seem like reasonable issues to grieve. The idea that said pilot gets **** on relentlessly for calling them on this is absurd. Maybe he’s actually content on the MD now, but wants to make it better for other new hires behind him? I have no clue, don’t know him, so I’ll keep an open mind and let the grievance take its course.
I am completely the opposite. I *hate* the SSN setup. Pilots should be ranked by age: older pilots get higher seniority in the class. As you stated, older pilots have less time to work so they need the stability and money as soon as possible.

Countries like Sweden operate this way for all jobs -- the elder get priority for everything; young folks are at the bottom and must accept it as they have less responsibilities.

Ranking seniority by age IS NOT age discrimination. The Age Discrimination Employment Act (ADEA) is ONLY for folks 40 years of age and older. The SCOTUS ruled that the ADEA does not protect younger people (those younger than 40), and it does not protect those over 40 who believe they were discriminated based on age because of someone older than them. It is strictly there to protect the jobs of people over 40 years old from being replaced by people younger than them.

Now you know the law and you are wrong.
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Old 05-11-2019, 01:31 PM
  #33  
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In the past, I thought the Chosen MD11 folks were starting a week earlier and then the pick what you'd like crowd.
Which meant FedEx was double teaching versus maxing out the class room size.

Get the impression that's not the case now, that people are being "hired" but really starting Day 1 at the exact same time.

Which doesn't, quite, seem right.

Would almost be like hiring a Pro, then immediately giving him\her a 3 year leave of absence to continue teaching in the FedEx school house and then return for the WB (or Capt) seat that 3 years of Seniority would merit.
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Old 05-11-2019, 01:42 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
In the past, I thought the Chosen MD11 folks were starting a week earlier and then the pick what you'd like crowd.
Which meant FedEx was double teaching versus maxing out the class room size.

Get the impression that's not the case now, that people are being "hired" but really starting Day 1 at the exact same time.

Which doesn't, quite, seem right.

Would almost be like hiring a Pro, then immediately giving him\her a 3 year leave of absence to continue teaching in the FedEx school house and then return for the WB (or Capt) seat that 3 years of Seniority would merit.


You lost me there.

The FDAs & MDs show on property on Sunday, sign paperwork for date of hire. Then everyone shows up the following day Monday to start BI, and the rest sign paperwork for date of hire.

Not advocating for wrong or right, but that’s the current process.
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Old 05-11-2019, 04:40 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox View Post
I am completely the opposite. I *hate* the SSN setup. Pilots should be ranked by age: older pilots get higher seniority in the class. As you stated, older pilots have less time to work so they need the stability and money as soon as possible.

Countries like Sweden operate this way for all jobs -- the elder get priority for everything; young folks are at the bottom and must accept it as they have less responsibilities.

Ranking seniority by age IS NOT age discrimination. The Age Discrimination Employment Act (ADEA) is ONLY for folks 40 years of age and older. The SCOTUS ruled that the ADEA does not protect younger people (those younger than 40), and it does not protect those over 40 who believe they were discriminated based on age because of someone older than them. It is strictly there to protect the jobs of people over 40 years old from being replaced by people younger than them.

Now you know the law and you are wrong.
To your first point. We all make choices. The 24yr old former intern in my class made a choice to bust his butt, go to an aviation school, instruct, do a great job as an intern at a major airline, and put himself in position to start a career at a major at 24. On the opposite end, the 55 year old in our class, who got his first pick of aircraft, chose to get his 20 yr military retirement first and forgo an earlier airline career before starting his 121 career. I don’t think any airline is responsible to rack and stack individuals and prioritize their “stability” over other younger pilots. This isn’t Sweden. References to age are supposed to be removed in the hiring process (although it’s obvious our age from looking at the resume) why blatantly change that on day one?

Maybe it’s not covered in ADEA but that could mean the labor laws are antiquated. It doesn’t make it right. My viewpoint is that it’s a form of age discrimination and gives an unfair advantage to others solely based off when they were born.

Lastly, do you have a lot of success with telling your captains they are wrong while flying the line? I don’t know you and you don’t know me. Simmer down.
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:02 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
In the past, I thought the Chosen MD11 folks were starting a week earlier and then the pick what you'd like crowd.
Which meant FedEx was double teaching versus maxing out the class room size.

Get the impression that's not the case now, that people are being "hired" but really starting Day 1 at the exact same time.

Which doesn't, quite, seem right.

Would almost be like hiring a Pro, then immediately giving him\her a 3 year leave of absence to continue teaching in the FedEx school house and then return for the WB (or Capt) seat that 3 years of Seniority would merit.
Yeah that’s not accurate at all so don’t sweat it. IF offered the MD you start on Sunday simply to get your line number then join up with the rest of the class on Monday.
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Old 05-11-2019, 08:38 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by rvfanatic View Post
To your first point. We all make choices. The 24yr old former intern in my class made a choice to bust his butt, go to an aviation school, instruct, do a great job as an intern at a major airline, and put himself in position to start a career at a major at 24. On the opposite end, the 55 year old in our class, who got his first pick of aircraft, chose to get his 20 yr military retirement first and forgo an earlier airline career before starting his 121 career.
I don't really care how the seniority numbers are determined. If airline X wants to use SSNs and effectively make it a luck process based on someone's SSN - fine. If they want to base it on age, that has a basis in logic I can accept as well. Maybe a bit more so because it makes sense. Some 55 year old guy isn't going to be around as long as the 24 year old, so putting the 55 y/o at the top of his class isn't going to affect everyone else in that class for potentially 41 years. That seems far more logical than the luck of the draw tipping the SSN scales in favor of the 24 y/o. But, I could accept either system.

What I don't care for is this underlying message that the "butt busting" and "great job" instructing somehow entitles the 24 year old to better starting seniority because he did a better job "positioning" himself for his 121 career. Dues get paid by everyone who lands a 121 job. Maybe it's busting their butt instructing, interning or maybe it's getting their ass shot at in a fighter, military deployments around the world or multi-cruises on a carrier. In the end, we all ended up beginning a 121 career when our quals, circumstances and the industry factors aligned to create the opportunity. That's that. No one is owed a 121 career, the seniority they attain or more or less deserving of said career because of choices they made or the path their career took.
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Old 05-12-2019, 02:42 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by rvfanatic View Post
To your first point. We all make choices. The 24yr old former intern in my class made a choice to bust his butt, go to an aviation school, instruct, do a great job as an intern at a major airline, and put himself in position to start a career at a major at 24. On the opposite end, the 55 year old in our class, who got his first pick of aircraft, chose to get his 20 yr military retirement first and forgo an earlier airline career before starting his 121 career. I don’t think any airline is responsible to rack and stack individuals and prioritize their “stability” over other younger pilots. This isn’t Sweden. References to age are supposed to be removed in the hiring process (although it’s obvious our age from looking at the resume) why blatantly change that on day one?

Maybe it’s not covered in ADEA but that could mean the labor laws are antiquated. It doesn’t make it right. My viewpoint is that it’s a form of age discrimination and gives an unfair advantage to others solely based off when they were born.

Lastly, do you have a lot of success with telling your captains they are wrong while flying the line? I don’t know you and you don’t know me. Simmer down.
Boy you stepped in it. Your disdain for the 55-year old military retiree is noted.

I'm sure that military retiree had it so easy during his career. How dare he get an airplane the 24-year old didn't!! I mean, your friend "bust his butt" as an intern! Can you imagine the papercuts!!! Oh the horror.

For two long years of his 41 year career your friend who "worked hard" has to sit in a disadvantaged position while that military pilot who hasn't done anything in his life gets to move on ahead of him! Oh the nerve of that guy!!!

No, this is not a form of age discrimination. Two years out of your friend's forty-one year career who "worked hard" is a lot less than two years out of the military retiree's ten year career. Who is screwed more?

You need to check yourself. If you had the nerve to publicly post this on a website where you aren't private hiding behind your computer, you're most likely to express this opinion while at work -- and trust me that's not going to work out well for you.

I can't believe you compared a 24-year old intern to a 55-year old military pilot retiree.

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Old 05-12-2019, 02:54 PM
  #39  
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I have no problem with the social security number seniority ranking. It's random, and hard to cry foul or favoritism. I don't understand this lawsuit, though, maybe there's more to it. You get called and asked if you want to come a day early. Fly the MD-11 and get a lower seniority number. If you don't want to, say no. Don't understand the problem, so it can't be that simple.
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Old 05-12-2019, 07:16 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
I don't really care how the seniority numbers are determined. If airline X wants to use SSNs and effectively make it a luck process based on someone's SSN - fine. If they want to base it on age, that has a basis in logic I can accept as well. Maybe a bit more so because it makes sense. Some 55 year old guy isn't going to be around as long as the 24 year old, so putting the 55 y/o at the top of his class isn't going to affect everyone else in that class for potentially 41 years. That seems far more logical than the luck of the draw tipping the SSN scales in favor of the 24 y/o. But, I could accept either system.

What I don't care for is this underlying message that the "butt busting" and "great job" instructing somehow entitles the 24 year old to better starting seniority because he did a better job "positioning" himself for his 121 career. Dues get paid by everyone who lands a 121 job. Maybe it's busting their butt instructing, interning or maybe it's getting their ass shot at in a fighter, military deployments around the world or multi-cruises on a carrier. In the end, we all ended up beginning a 121 career when our quals, circumstances and the industry factors aligned to create the opportunity. That's that. No one is owed a 121 career, the seniority they attain or more or less deserving of said career because of choices they made or the path their career took.
The intent of my post was to state that we all make decisions and we should arrive as equals the second we start a career as FOs at a major. FDX does a good job of that IMHO. When I was 22, I made a decision to go Active Duty and knew that I'd be on the hook for 12 years min. I had an amazing ride and flew in over 65 countries on 5 continents and deployed 11 times. I wouldn't trade the experiences or friends I made to swap careers with the 24 year old. To summarize, I made that decision to take the career path I did, nobody else, and I had to live with the good, bad, and the ugly. I sure as hell never felt entitled to any special treatment when I showed up for Indoc. So I think we agree that nobody is owed anything, especially a 121 career.
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