Change My View - Part 117
01-14-2020, 06:07 AM
#21
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2019
Posts: 21
No idea about how 117 would affect us BUT...some of you need to realize this whole “if they don’t want it, it’s good for us” BS is stupid. You do realize we are in a time right now where any other ingredient added to the perfect storm could really make things interesting? This company has to make money. And lots of it. That’s reality. These mgt people are just doing their job too. A lot of you are think you are way more important than you are. There is no wide ranging conspiracy to screw us. I want things to get better for all of us but I also want FedEx to make lots of money and be healthy. Maybe the devil we know isn’t so bad for us or “them”. This all ALPA pushing for money. That’s the “them” who’s intention and wisdom I’d be questioning.
01-14-2020, 06:16 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 279
I Flew at a regional when 117 came out...was not good for the pilot definition of efficiency, that being $$/hour away from home. We were more rested and more empowered in fatigue, both needed at the regional level. In my opinion, the higher the flight frequency and shorter the flights were the highest benefit. The longer the flights the smaller the impact and benefit. That, in addition to handcuffing the company’s flexibility. 117 was good for regional guys and groups who don’t work well with pilots as it puts control with the individual. I believe we have that control and respect from our leadership without the need for legislation.
There is not a one size fits all solution. ALPA’s ‘one level of safety’ slogan is bs. There is not one solution for anything. A single guy probably doesn’t need a suburban and a family of six can’t use a Corvette.
There is not a one size fits all solution. ALPA’s ‘one level of safety’ slogan is bs. There is not one solution for anything. A single guy probably doesn’t need a suburban and a family of six can’t use a Corvette.
01-14-2020, 06:26 AM
#23
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 54
Relatively new hire here at FX. What I like about FX is the incredible schedule flexility. What I observed at Atlas under a Hybrid 117 PAX/Cargo op was less efficient pairings, 30/7 rest requirements that really messed up any flexibility, and they were still able to make really tough schedules. I have an open mind but having worked for now 4 airlines over the last two decades I am not really on the 117 bandwagon. I think what FX does and what passenger airlines do is just different. We don't block 900hours a year, and I really love the schedule flexibility that we enjoy at FX. I would rather be left to my own to manage my schedule and my rest rather than be pinned down by some regulations as to what I can and cannot do with my schedule.
01-14-2020, 06:36 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: FO
Posts: 3,031
Originally Posted by KYTBRD
based on this our week on week off scheduling would be in the crapper. Now instead of 1.5hr min turn I need 3.5 hours. That’ll eliminate a lot of turn possibilities for commuters and drive up either the number of commutes or the number of “dead days” sitting in Memphis waiting for the next set of trips to start. Commuters try to eliminate how many days off they have sitting in Memphis. This potentially results in more unpaid Memphis “layovers”.
time to get to rest facility: 0030
rest:2+00
show prior to departure: 1+00
I haven’t read the whole 117 a while so I’m not sure how the day lines would be effected. I think each of us need to invest time in reading it and while reading it think about how it will effect your typically awarded lines and how it would effect those you’d like to have. At my last job part 117 really screwed with our schedule for the worse by extending how many days you were on the road to make the same amount of pay. I agree the company will put out info to support their position but I think we all need to be very careful with this beast. This is just as much a QoL issue as the vacation system we currently have, Emotional conjecture and posturing without taking the time to read the rules is blind ignorance. ALPA literature will posture just as much as the company but for other self motivated reasons. Read the darn rules, apply them to your February line,and recognize both alpa and Fedex have something to gain and something to lose.
https://www.alpa.org/~/media/DAL/Doc...Rules-Text.pdf
https://www.alpa.org/-/media/DAL/Doc...de-FAR-117.pdf
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-117
last but nothing least the FAA legal interpretations of 117 sections
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...bSubmit=Search
save the PDFs to GoodReader or whatever app you use and read them on your next flight when you have nothing else to do. Discuss with others on the flight deck. Don’t wait to be told this will or will not effect your life. Figure it out for yourself. I think it’s age to say commuters try to make as much as possible in as little time as possible. Make sure you can still do that.
time to get to rest facility: 0030
rest:2+00
show prior to departure: 1+00
I haven’t read the whole 117 a while so I’m not sure how the day lines would be effected. I think each of us need to invest time in reading it and while reading it think about how it will effect your typically awarded lines and how it would effect those you’d like to have. At my last job part 117 really screwed with our schedule for the worse by extending how many days you were on the road to make the same amount of pay. I agree the company will put out info to support their position but I think we all need to be very careful with this beast. This is just as much a QoL issue as the vacation system we currently have, Emotional conjecture and posturing without taking the time to read the rules is blind ignorance. ALPA literature will posture just as much as the company but for other self motivated reasons. Read the darn rules, apply them to your February line,and recognize both alpa and Fedex have something to gain and something to lose.
https://www.alpa.org/~/media/DAL/Doc...Rules-Text.pdf
https://www.alpa.org/-/media/DAL/Doc...de-FAR-117.pdf
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-117
last but nothing least the FAA legal interpretations of 117 sections
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...bSubmit=Search
save the PDFs to GoodReader or whatever app you use and read them on your next flight when you have nothing else to do. Discuss with others on the flight deck. Don’t wait to be told this will or will not effect your life. Figure it out for yourself. I think it’s age to say commuters try to make as much as possible in as little time as possible. Make sure you can still do that.
Your commute in doesn’t count as duty and you could still come 90 minutes before show, that’s a contractual requirement anyway and not an FAR requirement (so is the 13:30 from show of your DH to release of you first duty period).
Since they have to adjust flight times so that all
hub tuners gets 3:30, chances
are the turn time of your commute would be longer. Not that it is required.
01-14-2020, 07:46 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 936
Originally Posted by BlueMoon
117 doesn’t control commuting. It controls what the company can schedule as a turn. You just have to show up properly rested, like we always have.
Your commute in doesn’t count as duty and you could still come 90 minutes before show, that’s a contractual requirement anyway and not an FAR requirement (so is the 13:30 from show of your DH to release of you first duty period).
Since they have to adjust flight times so that all
hub tuners gets 3:30, chances
are the turn time of your commute would be longer. Not that it is required.
Your commute in doesn’t count as duty and you could still come 90 minutes before show, that’s a contractual requirement anyway and not an FAR requirement (so is the 13:30 from show of your DH to release of you first duty period).
Since they have to adjust flight times so that all
hub tuners gets 3:30, chances
are the turn time of your commute would be longer. Not that it is required.
01-14-2020, 07:49 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
So,
My week is built with 4 nights of hub turns.
DH-ABC Monday morning and the operate ABC-MEM-ABC all week with a backend DH on Friday.
Day one I’m delayed for weather, maintenance, deicing, whatever. What happens to my week now? Into SUB for that last day that I’m no longer legal for? Does FedEx delay my departure an hour or two so I can have the required rest opportunity in a sleep room?
Or does FedEx just avoid that complication by limiting the schedule to 3 days on, or 2 days on?
Most of our lines, trips meet 117. But not all. Think every bidpack has some tour America hodgepodge of trips strung together in 2 or 3 day increments. Would truly suck as a commuter if that’s how a FedEx solves the greater complexity, greater time off duration in a week.
My week is built with 4 nights of hub turns.
DH-ABC Monday morning and the operate ABC-MEM-ABC all week with a backend DH on Friday.
Day one I’m delayed for weather, maintenance, deicing, whatever. What happens to my week now? Into SUB for that last day that I’m no longer legal for? Does FedEx delay my departure an hour or two so I can have the required rest opportunity in a sleep room?
Or does FedEx just avoid that complication by limiting the schedule to 3 days on, or 2 days on?
Most of our lines, trips meet 117. But not all. Think every bidpack has some tour America hodgepodge of trips strung together in 2 or 3 day increments. Would truly suck as a commuter if that’s how a FedEx solves the greater complexity, greater time off duration in a week.
01-14-2020, 07:51 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: FDX MD11 Capt in MEM
Posts: 885
Originally Posted by Tuck
I think you mean Leonard who has finished training a while ago. Dillman is not.
Been in training: ie- he was in charge of training.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
01-14-2020, 08:11 AM
#28
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,505
If 117 were jointly applied to both passenger and cargo operations, FDX ALPA and FDX Management (and every other pilot group and company management, for that matter) could jointly apply to the FAA for a 117.7 FRMS waiver to the regulations determined most negative to both parties, with decades of past practice and experience supporting such a request.
At minimum, wouldn't eliminating the ability to extend to FAR maximum 16 hours of duty and FAR minimum 8 hours of actual rest domestically be an improvement?
At minimum, wouldn't eliminating the ability to extend to FAR maximum 16 hours of duty and FAR minimum 8 hours of actual rest domestically be an improvement?
01-14-2020, 08:30 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Mad Dog Capt
Posts: 226
Still not hearing int'l repercussions. Seems that when this turd floated before a 3rd crew member was not required until 10:00 hrs of block time. It's 7:35 hrs now. This would be yet another giveback.
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