Cargo Under Part 117 Effort Accelerating
03-07-2020, 01:53 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by BLOB
So NOWORK, can you explain why on the China flying discussions you say our HKG, MD and 777 crews need to stop whining about inadequate rest facilities and just use your handy dandy IMSAFE checklist if they need to call in fatigued....but when it applies to you, you can’t possibly use that same approach under the existing rules. Instead you need to re-write the whole system and push for 117. Seems as inconsistent as many of your other positions. The only constant seems to be your ability to point out what others need to do in order to suit your desires.
In that discussion thread, I replied to alderdriver in the opposite stance. He says we don’t need 117 because we can just call in fatigue if we are fatigue (as if we don’t already know fatigue is insidious in nature, impares judgement, and doesn’t carry its one human factors baggage). Yet he was making the opposite type argument when it came to China flying.
03-07-2020, 01:55 PM
#22
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by HIFLYR
I think 117 would end the declaration of a Ops emergency for anything and you go to FAR limits or uncle and call fatigued. Would it not?
No, it wouldn’t. They could still declare and ops emergency and require us to operate to 117 limits. Those limits, in all but one or maybe two instances (for un-augmented), is always less than 16 hours.
03-07-2020, 02:46 PM
#24
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Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 210
Originally Posted by FXLAX
Management doesn’t build lines. ALPA bulls lines with the trips that were built by management with ALPA’s input. So of course ALPA would build week on week off schedules if that’s what we want.
Personally, I would like to have 2 hours behind the door so that I can sleep longer. Maybe I’m different?
Personally, I would like to have 2 hours behind the door so that I can sleep longer. Maybe I’m different?
Also, Imagine being denied trading off an ELP outbound for an ORD in open time that shows earlier but is less block and duty but doesn’t allow a 2 hour nap. Is that better? I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
03-09-2020, 10:55 AM
#25
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Cargo Under Part 117 Effort Accelerating
Originally Posted by BLOB
There are only so many inbound/outbound trips that will allow 2 hours.
Also, Imagine being denied trading off an ELP outbound for an ORD in open time that shows earlier but is less block and duty but doesn’t allow a 2 hour nap. Is that better? I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Also, Imagine being denied trading off an ELP outbound for an ORD in open time that shows earlier but is less block and duty but doesn’t allow a 2 hour nap. Is that better? I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I already fly week on week off trips in which there aren’t more than 3 night hub turns. They can also be built so that they go wed-tue or thurs-wed with. Also, I’m sure there are many more that only need 30 minutes or less added time to make legal. There are many ways to skin the cat.
But yes, I agree that it’s all in the eye of the beholder.
03-09-2020, 04:51 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 777 Captain in Training
Posts: 1,457
Originally Posted by FXLAX
No, it wouldn’t. They could still declare and ops emergency and require us to operate to 117 limits. Those limits, in all but one or maybe two instances (for un-augmented), is always less than 16 hours.
03-10-2020, 08:14 AM
#27
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Cargo Under Part 117 Effort Accelerating
Originally Posted by HIFLYR
Ok you got me no going to 16 hrs the current domestic limit. A glance at the chart means for a two leg would be 14 max and that is only for a 0700 dept I think. Most would be closer to our contractual build limit of around 10 to 12 hrs duty.
Looking at the FDP table for 3 legs, most duty limits would be reduced by 2 hours with some times being 3 hours less and a couple of times being zero hours difference compared to our current contractual limits. The big difference is if we are in an operational emergency, they can be extended from 30 minutes to 2 hours with the pilots’ consent.
03-10-2020, 08:40 AM
#28
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: FO
Posts: 3,032
Originally Posted by FXLAX
Looking at the FDP table for 3 legs, most duty limits would be reduced by 2 hours with some times being 3 hours less and a couple of times being zero hours difference compared to our current contractual limits. The big difference is if we are in an operational emergency, they can be extended from 30 minutes to 2 hours with the pilots’ consent.
No such limit on extensions 30 minutes or less
03-10-2020, 09:30 AM
#29
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Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by BlueMoon
Also that 2 hour extension can’t happen on back to back days. After an extension of more than 30 minutes you need 30 hours off from duty before being able to do another greater than 30 minute extension.
No such limit on extensions 30 minutes or less
No such limit on extensions 30 minutes or less
that’s probably the single biggest issue that the company has.
BTW how would you like to spend 30 hrs in MEM ever time there’s an OE.
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