Huh really

So, it's about pancakes vs waffles? Got it. Are those Kodiak Cake pancakes?

SaltyDog

Pilot wise:
FedEx has a 2% plan, UPS has a 1% plan.
FedEx maxes at 25 years. UPS maxes at 30 years.
UPS has a 10 year retro A plan in 1998 to cover all pilots on property that started in 1988. Very expensive to initially fund a 10 year retro A plan for a significant number of pilots in their 50s for government purposes. Reason UPS only agreed to a 1% plan not a 2% as the initial upfront funding was prohibitive.
UPS 1% and FedEx 2% have equal liability and funding requirements by feds. Thus, the statement of a cash balance plan is not entirely accurate. Our other additional A plan funding mechanism is the flat dollar amount funded contract by contract. Still expensive, but was a manner to catch up to FedEx 2% total payout. It is not less protected. Not sure why is seen as bad?
UPS 11% B plan on guarantee or bid credit was increased to 12% in 2006 on all credit hours. For FO's a much higher payout early in career. A significant boost but still limited for high earning captains and FO on the government cap. We are all knee deep in our own world of management negotiations.
At least we keep increasing our A plan payout in every negotiation since our A plan inception in 1998. So there is that...
I just wish you all get a A plan increase on the companies dime and responsibility. Would help all Purple and Brown pilots.
Our next contract will increase A plan payouts even higher. I don't see UPS pilots suddenly ratifying a contract without one. UPS knows this fact.

rvfanatic

Thread revival:

What do you guys think about what we are trying to do at United by taking hours reductions but based on seniority (more cuts for bottom 1/3 because they have the most risk of furlough and least cuts for senior)?

I was open for a mitigation plan but not this. It only prevents furloughs for 8 months at the expense of potentially 24 mo of pay cuts for those remaining. I’m really curious if 4a2b could be applied industry wide and what the limitations are?

Check6Viper

That sounds like a way to pit union members against each other. You guys should be operating in lockstep.

Fr8Master

I think every option is preferable to paycuts. Paycuts hurt the entire industry and take years and years to come back. Flight hours come back when demand comes back...pay comes back years after demand is back and unions have to fight and bargain to get it back.

bitwiser

United pilots are about to split themselves into three distinct groups. No, I can't see this backfiring in any way at all

Stan446

FedEx pilots will f it up. FedEx Union leadership will sell the crew force out. FedEx is making a ton of money, see earnings call, no reason A plan can't be improved. Time for guys to stop selling back vacation. Every person on draft has to hang their head and try to justify the extra pay. Ever fly with these guys, they always have an excuse for the extra pay, They know we are giving into the company and losing out on contract improvements. My guess, lots of pilots *****ing, and lots of pilots signing next crappy contract. You'd had 6 months of extra flying to bring the company to the table. I said this in Apr and all I got was that we weren't in contract openers. I can't believe how stupid guys I fly with are. Extra loads will be gone by next summer, vaca sell back and AVA all gone. You've missed your leverage again. Think back to spring of 2020 and what you had. Then enjoy spring 2021 when you have nothing. You deserve what you aren't willing to fight for.

FXLAX

I wasn’t here for 4a2b but everything I hear (bad) is that it wasn’t evenly applied. It only applied to pilots in some seats and not others. So it wasn’t based entirely on seniority but it seemed to have caused animosity, nonetheless and rightfully so I feel. I don’t know if it caused downgrades but that would’ve been a double pay cut. Does your TA prevent downgrades and displacements?

FXLAX

Pay rates are the easiest to get back. Work rules are always harder. Think of it this way, would management give us back our vacation rules when things get better if we traded that to keep pay rates? Never. But they can’t say never to pay rates. Eventually they have to be competitive with pay rates.

Fr8Master

I suppose I wasn’t clear. What I’m trying to convey is that when demand picks up, planes will fly which in turn will increase credit hours. Pay cuts, however, don’t ever (historically) snap back automatically as demand increases, they have to be bargained back...sometimes at the expense of work rules. My point is, lower bid line credit hours are preferential in my eyes over any other concessions.

if business is down, something HAS to give otherwise a company will go bankrupt. Nobody is going to fly empty planes. Reducing credit hours would be my vote and I’m glad we have a version of that.