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Old 09-24-2020, 07:26 AM   #11  
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Originally Posted by Noworkallplay View Post
You’re a flake. You’re no different than the trolls at every other airline that try to make a personal site for self propaganda. Your type have a complex that has to be heard. You’re doing nothing but creating disunity and I guarantee you it will do us no good in negotiations. It must be nice to hide behind a curtain and say whatever you want but those that are actually doing the work have to put their name on it.
Dude, throttle back a bit. Sometimes you have salient points, but they are lost when you're always looking to hammer people based on what you perceive their intentions to be.

Thanks Fastburner for putting this together. This is coming from someone who generally agrees with the framework of the PSPP.

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Old 09-24-2020, 08:42 AM   #12  
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Dude, throttle back a bit. Sometimes you have salient points, but they are lost when you're always looking to hammer people based on what you perceive their intentions to be.

Thanks Fastburner for putting this together. This is coming from someone who generally agrees with the framework of the PSPP.

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Absolutely wont throttle back on behavior like this. Ive seen this type of behavior play out at a previous “legacy” airline. We had 3 or 4 “secret” sites with hidden names who all tried to deceive or sway people on certain items important to them. They undercut the entire group and split people apart for selfish reasons. I wont stand idle and watch it happen to us at FDX. This is to important to us all to start playing hidden names and hidden agendas. For craps sake a survey is currently out use it to give your thoughts tp our folks doing the job. Us as line swine need to use the sources we have. Going on social media and creating secret websites doesn't do anyone any good regardless of what side you are on for each specific issue.

Jet flyers is an echo chamber because none of the elected reps or committee members are going to debate on it because its not a union site. Its literally a place for the same 15 names to complain. Then you look up their calendar (if not blocked) and they are flying 20-25 days a month. Must not be that bad.

This pilot group better wake up or we are about to get divided and owned by management.

For the record I was cordial until the poster started degrading and throwing shad.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:20 AM   #13  
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Absolutely wont throttle back on behavior like this. Ive seen this type of behavior play out at a previous “legacy” airline. We had 3 or 4 “secret” sites with hidden names who all tried to deceive or sway people on certain items important to them. They undercut the entire group and split people apart for selfish reasons. I wont stand idle and watch it happen to us at FDX. This is to important to us all to start playing hidden names and hidden agendas. For craps sake a survey is currently out use it to give your thoughts tp our folks doing the job. Us as line swine need to use the sources we have. Going on social media and creating secret websites doesn't do anyone any good regardless of what side you are on for each specific issue.

Jet flyers is an echo chamber because none of the elected reps or committee members are going to debate on it because its not a union site. Its literally a place for the same 15 names to complain. Then you look up their calendar (if not blocked) and they are flying 20-25 days a month. Must not be that bad.

This pilot group better wake up or we are about to get divided and owned by management.

For the record I was cordial until the poster started degrading and throwing shad.
It’s idiots like you that do much of the dividing.

What’s the problem with someone offering information? You can choose to agree or disagree. Many of us think much of the information the union has put out is propaganda. It’s incredibly one-sided. They’ve been trying to convince us that the pancake plan is the best thing ever. And it’s still incredibly unpopular. Most of us like our pension concept, but would like the amounts increased.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:40 AM   #14  
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Jetflyers adds credibility haha..... To who? Its the same 15 names complaining about everything all the time. We are doomed in negotiations if a lot of us think like you in regards to JF being credible. I have seen so many incorrect things posted on that site. Its maybe 50% at best on credibility. Its more of a comedy site for laughing pleasure. Like the guy who posted the other day on how to buy a house to “claim” residency in Tennessee while his wife and kids live elsewhere. I sometimes ask how these people fly airplanes. That site is littered with management and people post the stupidest self incriminating things. Then you have the standard “Im smarter than everyone” group who chimes in on everything within seconds with “personal thoughts” and not facts. Its honestly hilarious and most of the angry 15 don’t realize everyone is laughing at them not with them.
Credibility as in we know who created the website and we can gain access without giving the OP our name when we don’t know his.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:54 AM   #15  
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It’s idiots like you that do much of the dividing.

What’s the problem with someone offering information? You can choose to agree or disagree. Many of us think much of the information the union has put out is propaganda. It’s incredibly one-sided. They’ve been trying to convince us that the pancake plan is the best thing ever. And it’s still incredibly unpopular. Most of us like our pension concept, but would like the amounts increased.
Great, I like those ideas also but guess what I do the survey and talk to my reps. I don't go creating secret sites. I also deal in facts and can see the value in the new proposal. I understand the PSPP and understand how it removes the earnings cap and years of service limits. I understand how it allows us to capture some of the market gains in the fund that we currently get nothing for. I understand the stabilizing features. I also understand just increasing the plan we currently have. What I don't understand is those who come up with viewpoints and present them as facts. I went to numerous of the hub turn meetings in 2017 and 2018. I watched these notorious names try to present personal facts in these meeting and get made look like fools with facts form the consultants and R and I committee folks.

Bottom line is this. If we want an increase to the A plan we may have to look at different ideas. We need to use the communication tools we have. We need to have a certain level of trust in the numerous volunteers and outside consultants that have worked on this project for over 5 years now. Those volunteers are line pilots like you and me. Why the heck would they screw themselves? Are you saying its a big political sham? Your telling me over 5 years they got everyone involved to lie and take a huge loss in their own pension. At the end of the day if we as a group decide to just increase and uncap the B plan im on board with that. Running around saying someone in ALPA is selling you something by providing the education our pilot tasked them to do is disingenuous and bs. By doing this you might as well be called management. In fact im sure management and labor relations is licking their chops for openers. They can see how easy they can throw in a carrott and divide the group. They can see on Jet-flyers. Just look at the names who are members of that site. Numerous people in management. We have people getting fired over what they post on that site but yet another slow character comes along and post incriminating information. They see us bicker and fight in public with our names attached. They know precisely where the pilot group stands because these people put it out in the open. We undercut our negotiating committee. We undercut our elected reps no matter who they are. Yet the notorious names who know it all are no where to be found when positions open in the union. If you got all the answers and know best then step up. I know I don't have all the answers so I trust people much smarter than myself who have put in countless hours doing this work. I take the surveys. I stay engaged. I go to the meetings as much as possible. I support those doing the work. I ask questions through the proper channels.

We are approaching a critical time. We as a group must make a conscious decision. Are we going to bicker in public or are we going to keep our cards close to our chest. One will keep management guessing and the other will be used to divide and conquer. Seen it done many of times and we are heading down that path again. Be part of the solution or part of the problem. Its your choice.
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:52 AM   #16  
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I don't go creating secret sites.

If we want an increase to the A plan we may have to look at different ideas.

Be part of the solution or part of the problem. Its your choice.
Let’s see here I read - “Ignorance is strength” so don’t look for alternative education from that which is being shoved down your collective throats. It’s not secret you’re invited to view the site you just have to be confirmed as a pilot - But keep on lying. Heaven forbid That a guy who has decades of research and is sought out by groups far more intelligent than this group has published some research for us in his free time. Your reckless abandon to pass this disaster by trying to sway public opinion through propaganda like these posts will prove the saying “A pilot and his money are soon separated.”

I also read - “We have to admit defeat and cannot ever fix or improve our current A plan.“. Then they should resign from their positions if they can’t do what we pay them to do.

I also read - “If you're not with us you’re against us.” Now who’s dividing who here?

keep posting Nowork - it only increases the skepticism of this group and any monumental changes like the ones you are promoting through derision and mockery will require the utmost scrutiny by the cautious ones of us who care about our retirements and our families. I thank you again for a job well done towards our main goal which is to protect our future - every bit of your trolling helps us protect the most beautiful retirement system in the aviation world which could be made better by some simple negotiating but for your desire to turn it into toilet paper. DR K
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:24 AM   #17  
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Let’s see here I read - “Ignorance is strength” so don’t look for alternative education from that which is being shoved down your collective throats. It’s not secret you’re invited to view the site you just have to be confirmed as a pilot - But keep on lying. Heaven forbid That a guy who has decades of research and is sought out by groups far more intelligent than this group has published some research for us in his free time. Your reckless abandon to pass this disaster by trying to sway public opinion through propaganda like these posts will prove the saying “A pilot and his money are soon separated.”

I also read - “We have to admit defeat and cannot ever fix or improve our current A plan.“. Then they should resign from their positions if they can’t do what we pay them to do.

I also read - “If you're not with us you’re against us.” Now who’s dividing who here?

keep posting Nowork - it only increases the skepticism of this group and any monumental changes like the ones you are promoting through derision and mockery will require the utmost scrutiny by the cautious ones of us who care about our retirements and our families. I thank you again for a job well done towards our main goal which is to protect our future - every bit of your trolling helps us protect the most beautiful retirement system in the aviation world which could be made better by some simple negotiating but for your desire to turn it into toilet paper. DR K
They talked about the alternate methods in the education material over the last 5 years. They talked about the flat dollar formula and others. They gave the pros and cons. They then voted Unanimously to move forward with this plan. The key is UNANIMOUSLY!!! That means not a single elected representative voted against moving forward with this plan. Are you telling me all of the reps are just ignorant? So, all of them were sold snake oil? All of them decided to go with a plan that is inferior to the other options? Do you not see what is so obvious?

Im all for improving what we currently have if we can obtain that and thats what our majority wants. The problem of mine is with those who lie about the other options just to taint the well. They never make these points in official manners. They hide behind secret websites and social media pages that no official person is going to respond on. This is showing cowardice behavior. When these bs lies are brought up in official manners they are quickly burnt down by the professionals.

Like I have stated numerous times, im open to look at numerous options and I will let them (consultants, reps and committee volunteers) do the work and see what they present when its time. I wont throw shad at those doing the work. I will vote and give feedback through the proper channels. I will attend meetings. I wont produce false facts. I wont tell lies to push and agenda.

By the way you don't pay the reps anything. You don't pay the committee people anything. They volunteer unlike you. They actually have to put their name on the stuff they produce. They cant hide behind screen names and lies.

Last edited by Noworkallplay; 09-24-2020 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:40 AM   #18  
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They talked about the alternate methods in the education material over the last 5 years. They talked about the flat dollar formula and s others. They gave the pros and cons. They then voted Unanimously to move forward with this plan. The key is UNANIMOUSLY!!! That means not a single elected representative voted against moving forward with this plan. Are you telling me all of the reps are just ignorant? So all of them were sold snake oil? All of them decided to go with a plan that is inferior to the other options? Do you not see what is so obvious?

Like I have stated numerous times, im open to look at numerous options and I will let them (consultants, reps and committee volunteers) do the work and see what they present when its time. I wont throw shad at those doing the work. I will vote and give feedback through the proper channels. I will attend meetings. I wont produce false facts. I wont tell lies to push and agenda.

By the way you don't pay the reps anything. You don't pay the committee people anything. They volunteer unlike you.

I don’t know about voting unanimously? Maybe they did, but if so it was without OUR input since the survey is just now being accomplished!
I flew with a negotiating committee member over a year ago who flat out stated, PM had already told them their top three priorities for the upcoming contract. Number one, not “improve retirement” in general, but specifically and emphatically, “The VBP” (as it was known then). So yes, without our input, without alternatives, the VBP was the chairman’s stated top priority a year ago and still is today!
I filled out the survey, I participated in 2 of the phone surveys (which were generic and twisted to say “they supported” something they didn’t, I’ve been to meetings, I’ve spoken directly with my rep(s), and I’ve watched videos. Unlike you, I’m not blind to an agenda that isn’t driven by us, the membership!


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Old 09-24-2020, 11:47 AM   #19  
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They talked about the alternate methods in the education material over the last 5 years. They talked about the flat dollar formula and others. They gave the pros and cons. They then voted Unanimously to move forward with this plan. The key is UNANIMOUSLY!!! That means not a single elected representative voted against moving forward with this plan. Are you telling me all of the reps are just ignorant? So, all of them were sold snake oil? All of them decided to go with a plan that is inferior to the other options? Do you not see what is so obvious?

Im all for improving what we currently have if we can obtain that and thats what our majority wants. The problem of mine is with those who lie about the other options just to taint the well. They never make these points in official manners. They hide behind secret websites and social media pages that no official person is going to respond on. This is showing cowardice behavior. When these bs lies are brought up in official manners they are quickly burnt down by the professionals.

Like I have stated numerous times, im open to look at numerous options and I will let them (consultants, reps and committee volunteers) do the work and see what they present when its time. I wont throw shad at those doing the work. I will vote and give feedback through the proper channels. I will attend meetings. I wont produce false facts. I wont tell lies to push and agenda.

By the way you don't pay the reps anything. You don't pay the committee people anything. They volunteer unlike you. They actually have to put their name on the stuff they produce. They cant hide behind screen names and lies.

Just want to start off by correcting one thing. MEC status reps, officers, and some committee members get flight pay loss for MEC work. So that money does come from our dues. So it’s not all volunteer, although I’m sure much of it is. Just wanted to clarify that.

Do you have any concerns that this plan may have negative consequences on pilots trying to fly maximum amount at maximum pay for maximum time and how that will change system bidding? Also how tying career earnings to this plan may put future downward pressure on being able to increase pay, not just pay rates but all types of compensation (rigs, duty period minimums, disruption pay, basically all soft time)?
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:57 AM   #20  
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Just want to start off by correcting one thing. MEC status reps, officers, and some committee members get flight pay loss for MEC work. So that money does come from our dues. So it’s not all volunteer, although I’m sure much of it is. Just wanted to clarify that.

Do you have any concerns that this plan may have negative consequences on pilots trying to fly maximum amount at maximum pay for maximum time and how that will change system bidding? Also how tying career earnings to this plan may put future downward pressure on being able to increase pay, not just pay rates but all types of compensation (rigs, duty period minimums, disruption pay, basically all soft time)?
I dont have those concerns because our pilot group already flys max amount. We already have the group who bids quickest seat movement and some bid home town flying. Look at current conditions for an example. I also dont have concerns that pilots will stay longer because the average retirement age of our pilot group is over 64. That data has already been shared in the education material.
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