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Old 09-27-2020, 06:29 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by FXLAX View Post
In reality, all these things of the proposed new retirement plan need to be negotiated. Will they be able to get that look back provision? If they don’t, will they abandon it or will they put it in the TA? None of this is known until the TA is published. There is as much usefulness in arguing about look back as there is in arguing about $400/hr pay rates. Maybe that’s the reason why you ignored my last reply to you?
Fastburner didn't answer my question in regards to leaving out facts. Funny thing is he claims he is a new hire which means he wasnt even around for the first “education wave”. You are correct that everything needs to be negotiated just like our current plan. So why are you arguing things that are not even being negotiated yet? Lets all do the survey and step back and see what comes of it. Lets then see what is on the table for negotiations. Keep in mind that whats on the table at the begging may fall off at the end. We are getting the cart ahead of the horse throwing all these guesses and personal opinions out on topics that are not known. I have seen you and a couple others post these long thesis’s about market returns yet we don't even know the hurdle rate and floor. That all has a big effect on accrued benefits. We have people talking about asset class mix and we have professionals who have looked at that. I have a financial advisor for a reason. Major corporations have financial advisors for a reason. Wealthy people have financial advisors for a reason.
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:33 AM
  #52  
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Fastburner,

another comment.
First, our salaries have kept up with inflation.
In 2006 the initial WB Capt payrate was $224.80. I don't remember what our pay raise was at the time, but I'd suspect it was in the 10-15% range because the duration of negotiations was similar to our duration for TA2015. (Our 99 CBA was a 5 year deal that became amendable mid-summer of 2004) Final pay rate of our 2006 CBA was $245.65 (Intl override was $9)

For comparison of the stagnating value of our pension, really need to start 2011/12 timeframe. 2012 probably a bit better, although I haven't done that math either, because March 2011 WB Capt pay rate bumped to $253.03 while 2012's was $260.61

Even worse, if you run with the 884 model, think your comparison would start circa Nov 2016.

IF you want to make it an even more eye opening disparity, both salary and stagnation of our 99 Pension, search out one of the True\Real inflation advocates on the internet who will tell you the 4% raise you earned last year didn't keep up with the Real Inflation.
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:41 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Noworkallplay View Post
Fastburner didn't answer my question in regards to leaving out facts. Funny thing is he claims he is a new hire which means he wasnt even around for the first “education wave”..
Whether he was around or not is immaterial to his argument. And he's entitled to express his opinion.

Which is that the company CAN afford to improve our A plan. (They Can)
That the PSPP is inferior to a similarly adjusted Traditional Plan. (It is)

I think the PSPP is a more likely, modest (extremely modest), improvement to our Defined Benefit.
Whichever way the survey goes, I know which team I'm on when Negotiations start.

And although flying CO and trading up the BLG+12 and going -6 in the Makeup Balance is a Contractual Right. I know I won't be exercising those rights in 2022.
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Old 09-27-2020, 09:43 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Noworkallplay View Post
Fastburner didn't answer my question in regards to leaving out facts. Funny thing is he claims he is a new hire which means he wasnt even around for the first “education wave”. You are correct that everything needs to be negotiated just like our current plan. So why are you arguing things that are not even being negotiated yet? Lets all do the survey and step back and see what comes of it. Lets then see what is on the table for negotiations. Keep in mind that whats on the table at the begging may fall off at the end. We are getting the cart ahead of the horse throwing all these guesses and personal opinions out on topics that are not known. I have seen you and a couple others post these long thesis’s about market returns yet we don't even know the hurdle rate and floor. That all has a big effect on accrued benefits. We have people talking about asset class mix and we have professionals who have looked at that. I have a financial advisor for a reason. Major corporations have financial advisors for a reason. Wealthy people have financial advisors for a reason.

Who is fast burner? I don’t care what he said or didn’t say to you. I’m referring to my reply to you that you have yet to answer? As for thesis, I don’t know enough about this subject to write a thesis about it. I’m simply asking questions. I’m not for or against the PSPP since I haven’t seen it in a TA. But I do have concerns that would need to be addressed before I could consider it. So here is my post to you again. Can you please address it?

“Do you have data to support your position? Or is it just anecdotal? Because when I look at the 777 seniority summary list, the aircraft/base with the most senior junior captains are all the international flying that pays premium. The 777, ANC11, LAX11 junior captains are almost all top 50% as opposed to all the other captain seats being well below 50%. To me, that says that pilots tend to go to higher paying seats faster than the lower paying seats, which is normal, I believe. If you tie the amount you take with you when you leave, to the total amount you make while here, it would be reasonable to think that it will change system bid behavior. To think that it doesn’t incentivize increasing career earnings is like thinking that you wouldn’t contribute 10% into your 401k in order to get another 10% on top of that. It’s safe to assume that more would chase the money than we have now.

But you did not respond to my second point. Do you have any comments on that?”
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Old 09-27-2020, 10:13 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by FXLAX View Post
Who is fast burner? I don’t care what he said or didn’t say to you. I’m referring to my reply to you that you have yet to answer? As for thesis, I don’t know enough about this subject to write a thesis about it. I’m simply asking questions. I’m not for or against the PSPP since I haven’t seen it in a TA. But I do have concerns that would need to be addressed before I could consider it. So here is my post to you again. Can you please address it?

“Do you have data to support your position? Or is it just anecdotal? Because when I look at the 777 seniority summary list, the aircraft/base with the most senior junior captains are all the international flying that pays premium. The 777, ANC11, LAX11 junior captains are almost all top 50% as opposed to all the other captain seats being well below 50%. To me, that says that pilots tend to go to higher paying seats faster than the lower paying seats, which is normal, I believe. If you tie the amount you take with you when you leave, to the total amount you make while here, it would be reasonable to think that it will change system bid behavior. To think that it doesn’t incentivize increasing career earnings is like thinking that you wouldn’t contribute 10% into your 401k in order to get another 10% on top of that. It’s safe to assume that more would chase the money than we have now.

But you did not respond to my second point. Do you have any comments on that?”
You quoted my response that was to Fastburner.

Senior WB FO currently makes more than Reserve Jr NB Capt. Thats fact. They bid carryovers. They sell vacation. They do draft. Its what happens in reality. Also the line values vary from top to bottom. Others make more in the FO seat by bidding an FDA like HKG who has FO’s making well north of 400k.

Those who want seniority arent going to bid Capt sooner for a marginal pay bump to go from senior FO to commuter reserve NB or Jr WB capt. Thats just reality. If you would like a good example of this just look at the majors they only have a DC plan. Those guys retirement is purely based on income and they don’t have a different mix then we do when it comes to bidding upgrade. UA DL and AA retirement is purely income based and they still have the same mix of guys bidding qual and some chasing money. I was at one of them so I saw it in real time.

This argument is no different than those that say this will incentives people to stay longer when the union published the average retirement age was over 64 last year

Last edited by Noworkallplay; 09-27-2020 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 09-27-2020, 01:11 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by FDX1 View Post
Where or are you in the military and do you currently have or will have a military/federal pension?
From a thread in a different company's section but very appropriate!

Originally Posted by Buck Rogers View Post
If this is important information, then I would guess we need to know if their spouse is gainfully employed, how much she makes, how much their savings are worth, do they have a trust fund... ... etc???
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:52 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Noworkallplay View Post
.... I have seen you and a couple others post these long thesis’s about market returns yet we don't even know the hurdle rate and floor. That all has a big effect on accrued benefits. We have people talking about asset class mix and we have professionals who have looked at that. I have a financial advisor for a reason. Major corporations have financial advisors for a reason. Wealthy people have financial advisors for a reason.
It doesn't matter wether we know the hurdle rate or not - the information we are posting is FACTUAL historical data....or actual forecasts from company's that already have relationships with Fedex & our union (i.e. Vanguard & Schwab)

I'm highly confident that many of the pilots at Fedex are wealthy. And that many have financial advisors. I've personally spoken with two (to include one at Goldman Sachs), and both have advised me the Variable Benefit Plan is NOT superior to our current Defined Benefit Plan.

In Unity,
DLax
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:04 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
It's interesting that you (and others) think our Union can succeed in negotiating some provisions while predicting nothing but abject failure in negotiating the provisions of the PSPP.

As to pay raises, one of the comments I made during the web survey was that I thought inflation was going to increase over the next decade so my preference would be annual raises in excess of what we received during CBA2015. Say, like a 3%, 4%, 4%, 3%.

I also commented that perhaps one of the years could be reduced to change our B plan to Cash over Cap and plus it up. Say, year 2 only a 1% longevity raise while changing our B plan to an 11% Cash over Cap.
Haven't done the math on it, but I'd suspect that the Total dollar value would be lower than a straight 4% raise-but it would be hard for the company to argue that they can't "afford" a change like that. And, there'd be some tax savings for those below the cap while obviously benefiting everyone above the cap as well.
I think we may be able to negotiate a reasonable raise to our earnings cap, but it won't be as high as many pilots want. I think we may be able to get "the higher of : IRS 401(K) or NB Capt 15 year Pay x 1,000 hours". This will put in a permanent mechanism that will rise about 1.5-3.0% per year, which will address our A Plan degrading over time via inflation.

I'd like to see the YOS increased so years 26-30 earn an additional 1% credit. That would increase max percentage from 50% to 55%, but I think this would be more difficult to add. The company is currently enjoying the fact most guys are working to age 64 or 65. It reduces the A Fund payouts by 4-5 years, and allows the company 4-5 more years to make contributions. Changing the Regulated Age was a Win/Win for the company in terms of A Fund health. (....the decrease in bond returns has hurt the company)

I believe the company would much rather increase our B Fund. Why? Because that was their last offer!!

We shouldn't kick our A Plan to the curb. Rather keep it, and increase the B fund toward our closest competitor. Increase from 9% to 12% to match UPS. Adding "Cash Over Cap" would be nice, but it will still be an "ask" they may not agree with.

If our NC was able to get current A Fund (with annual earnings cap adjustment) + 12% B fund --- I'd sing their praises!

In Unity,
DLax
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Old 09-27-2020, 07:16 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Noworkallplay View Post
.... I understand the PSPP and understand how it removes the earnings cap and years of service limits. I understand how it allows us to capture some of the market gains in the fund that we currently get nothing for. I understand the stabilizing features.....
Originally Posted by DLax85 View Post
Noworkallplay -

I understand how the PSPP (aka Variable Benefit Plan) removes the earnings cap and years of service limits.

Could you please explain how it allows us to capture some of the market gains that we currently get nothing for?

Could you also please explain the stabilizing features and how they work?

(It appears my understanding of those to very salient features differ from proponents of the PSPP)

Thank you,

In Unity,
DLax

p.s. I've attended numerous hub turn meetings, read the retirement literature online, and watched all the retirement videos too. I'm genuinely interested in your understanding of how the two features will work.
Noworkallplay -

Bumpty, Bump - still genuinely interested in your explanations, especially your understanding on how the stabilization plan actually works and is funded.

Thanks for sharing.

In Unity,
DLax
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Old 09-28-2020, 06:17 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Noworkallplay View Post
Hold on... Did they not specifically say your group would be bought up?!!!!! Did they not specifically say it had an end of career look back to protect anyone who would have a higher accrual under the legacy plan? So why did you not mention this point?!!!!!!!! Are you purposefully leaving out details?

Look if your against anything other than the current plan than just say it and don't lie or purposefully leave out important details.
If you can tell the group what FCIF 20-0563 refers to - I would gladly respond.

FYI, thought you might be a troll because you post frequently on many other airlines and seem to post at times when most of us are flying. Perhaps you have a bunch of free time and enjoy the banter of APC. But, since you have not asked for access to site, I figure you may not be a FedEx pilot. I would gladly stand corrected if in fact you are on our seniority list and would sincerely apologize for calling you a troll. After answering simple question publicly or PM with some method of verification - I will respond.

Cheers
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