Offline Intl JS
 

Colleagues,

Curious if there is any movement on this subject at all or still the status quo ?

Unfortunately, no movement on international jumpseats.

There is a unique culture towards jumpseaters at Purple. I don’t see there being any traction towards allowing international offline jumpseaters anytime soon. COVID will only further push back progress which I don’t believe had started going anywhere before COVID.

Unique as in hostile?

Not at all.

I *believe* that since on most of our int'l flights the off-line jumpseater would be in the cockpit j/s, TSA does not allow it (nor at any other airline).

99% true, however Atlas allows offline intl JS for whatever reason

Atlas/Southern and Kalitta both offer cockpit jumpseats on international flights. Not a shot at FedEx, your js program is the best in the business, but it isn’t a regulatory issue.

Do they have reinforced cockpit doors that keep jumpseaters outside the cockpit?

That isn't the issue. I​​​​​ believe it is more the way their ops specs are written that allows it. It's a great benefit and one I hope will extend to the rest of the cargo operators someday.

Do you mean doors like our MD-11s have?

To clarify the question... do ALL their a/c have IRCD's?

Atlas/Southern, Kalitta, and the rest of the ACMI carriers do not have reinforced cockpit doors on the freighters.

Thanks.

Then it seems that FDX Corporate is not allowing the int'l jumpseat (I *believe UPS doesn't allow it either).

Hopefully we can get that changed. I would love to return the favor to all the carriers who help us out with their int'l jumpseat.

Wouldn’t be a bad idea to remember the reasons we have all these limitations in place and not divulge tactically useful information to the open public.

As far as intl JS goes, no 121 allows OALs in the actual so in a way FX and UPS are no different. All has to do with problems (read: cost) related to expanding the ‘JS software,’ internationally, or so I was told.

Another thing to consider, and I’ll tread lightly here, for the most part these freighters can get pretty cramped really quickly. It’s one thing on a domestic type leg, another entirely on an 8, 10, 12 hr flight - think that holds true for the pax carriers as well. Recall a thread on here talking about FX guys who were getting left behind on their own metal out of HKG, I know the same things have occasionally happened at brown and I think most would never list for a crossing on a light twin. Even if we all had the ability I’d probably only indulge in an emergency, at least for the long haul flights.

...Birdsmash just told you 3 121 carriers that all allow OAL jumpseaters in the cockpit on international flights, and there are more. So in a way, they are different. Not a dig at FedEx, you have the best offline js system in the business, but to say that it is “normal” because FedEx and UPS choose not to, is not accurate.

Uhmmmm, Birdsmash only talked about coxkpit doors. Kallitta and most ACMIs aren't 121 carriers, they fall under part 135. Looks like Atlas dabbles in both(?).

Either way, you’re argument doesn’t hold up. FX and UPS don’t choose anything. As I previously posted, it is a software/cost issue preventing the C system running outside the US. None of the legacies allow it, specifically for this reason. Not sure how Atlas skirts the reg.

Kalitta link:

https://www.kalittacharterscargo.com...vice-overview/

There are 3 airlines with the Kalitta name. K4 is Kalitta Air, flies 747, 777 and 767. Most definitely Part 121.

Atlas (including Polar and Southern) also is all 121, they fly 747, 777, 767 and 737.

There is no reg prohibiting Intl CASS. Atlas isn't skirting anything.

Oh man, that was a pretty hilarious way to wake up. Hopefully you’re trolling, but I’ll take the bait.

So you’re telling me, Atlas Air (including PO and 9S), that was 6th largest freight carrier in the world in 2019 and the largest 747 operator in the world, is a part 135 carrier? Lol.

Also, no one is talking about Kalitta Charters. Kalitta is a completely separate 121 airline.

As for your last point, which reg specifically? I have been taking jumpseaters in and out of foreign countries for years including checking CASS. What exactly prevents the “system” from working overseas, it always seems to work for me.

As an aside: if you really work for UPS, it is hilarious that you think Atlas and Kalitta, who fly for you during peak, are 135 carriers. Lol

Offline Intl JS
 

ALPA closed that part of the One Level of Safety loophole decades ago. Atlas, Polar, Southern, Kalitta, (along with all the regionals) are all part 121 now.

Maybe he's thinking 121 Supplemental? Like Western Global for our peak this year.

Since he posted a link to Kalitta Charters' website I doubt it.

No way. He clearly stated "Atlas, etc are not pt 121, they are pt 135". total gaffe

Well kuh-rap. Sorry I don’t know about y’all’s side of the house over there in ACMI world, what y’all do and how you operate. Glad you got a laugh out of it - I admit I did a trivial search when a more thorough one was obviously warranted. Doesn’t change my argument much and the greater point I was making. The simple fact is there is a reason no one besides the ACMI carriers carry actuals internationally and the reason given to me (by the people who would know) was restrictions on using CASS outside the USA.

The simple fact is that you know about as much about 121 vs 135 as you do about CASS. There is NO restriction to the use of CASS outside of the US. Just the way you word your responses makes me think you don’t really even understand how the system works...that plus the 121/135 thing, are you sure you’re an airline pilot?

Dude, if you know so much about it why not tell us all why the majors, the regionals, Fx & 5X all don’t allow actual JSers internationally while the ACMI’s do..? I’ve inquired with JS & security committees over the years and the answer I was given I shared here. That was clearly stated. Wording = cuz I dont want to give Jihad Jack unnecessary information on how to access a JS on a silver platter. 121/135, look man, I apologized for the mistake. You gunna find there’s a lot of us who don’t know (or care) about the ACMI side of things. Don’t need to take that personally.

You are factually incorrect. I have been jumpseating to and from Europe for years, as recent as 4 weeks ago (United) on United, DAL, AA, Atlas, Kalitta (btw gents and ladies - thanks as always).

Do not mistake jumpseating though for sitting in the actual js. Some airlines will let sit in the actual on intl flights (Kalitta atlas ) some will not (UAL dal aa). You are however still listed as a jumpseater thanks to cass.

The only difference with the pax carriers is that here has to be a seat available in the back for me to sit on, on those 3 as I do not work for any of those 3 nor is my airline affiliated with them.

All those listenings are possible thanks to CASS though.

Cabin JS status seating was never in dispute. I was clearly referring to the actual on non ACMIs and the reason for that, as was given to me, had to do with CASS. I’ve used offline JS privileges internationally too, sporadically for 20 years.

I think we all more or less agree. Just like offline pilots are welcome to “js” on us as well intl as long as there is a seat for them in the cabin.

The question on page one was more if there is any movement forward to have this changed as clearly Kalitta, Atlas and one or two more already allow this (taking CASS members in the actual regardless of domestic or intl ). Pax carriers (aa etc) matters a little less as there typically are always one or two seats open in the back anyway unless you go on a Friday in June.

I actually found that some of you don’t really know what you are talking about so I double checked some things I knew to be true.

Since it’s publicly available,

From ALPA’s jumpseat guide:

“3. Verifying Cockpit Access Security System (CASS) approval— ————. CASS serves only to meet the employment and identity verification requirement necessary to occupy a flight deck jumpseat. It has no bearing on eligibility to ride in the cabin.”

In the following paragraph:

“A jumpseater who will be occupying a cabin seat does not need to be CASS approved. “

So not thanks to CASS after all...

A little further down:

“International Jumpseating
In 2012, TSA lifted the restriction on off-line pilots occupying the jumpseat on international flights. As of this writing, ALPA is working to address a number of logistical hurdles and we anticipate that international jump- seating will again be a reality in the future. Until then, an off-line pilot may only occupy a seat in the passenger cabin when traveling internationally.”

As was explained to me, those LOGISTICAL HURDLES were mostly related to CASS.

Maybe YOUR airline has a specific CASS system issue overseas, but my airline provides direct access to the CASS system vía a proprietary app and cockpit jumpseaters are verified to be eligible planeside and prior to boarding by the flight crew. It doesn’t matter if we are in Orlando or Osaka, it all works the same way. All the answers you need are in your last paragraph, TSA lifted the ban in 2012, some airlines figured it out (built an app, created a listing tool that works overseas) and some did not.

Let’s see how many more pages we can get out of this thread!

Something tells me there’s a little more going on to the story seeing as its it’s only ACMIs that allow it. Whatever the reason, a big thank you to you guys for setting the precedent for offline intl JSing. I know we are always happy to reciprocate as much as we can.

Whip, something also tells me you’re the kind of pilot who always needs to get the last word in so I’ll let you have it. It’s been an unpleasant experience - hope we never have to interact again.

Seriously though, professional to professional, best of luck while the industry we work in implodes around us.

Has Fedex changed the phone number for domestic jumpseat? When i call the one on the fedex ALPA website it says “Call can not be completed as dialed”.

No, keep trying, maybe a phone issue.

I've been getting nothing but the busy signal for the last few hours.

Our Flt Ops site says the phone is down while AT&T does some troubleshooting.

Thanks for the help.

I wonder if someone cut a fiber optic cable in the area.

Andre did it.

Sorry for the thread bump. But at least Atlas was allowing offline cockpit jumpseating internationally prior to 2012. I rode on Atlas from HKG to ANC in July 2008 and had access to the flight deck (no cockpit door, just a curtain, and the crew invited me up for TO and LDG), and the same in July 2011 when I jumpseated from LUX to HSV.