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Old 03-20-2021, 08:55 AM   #21  
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ALPA seems to think Cherion is good enough for my retirement but I guess that’s different 🤔
It is different - this decision was made by a small group of pilots? What other financial advisor was invited to present a proposal? Why were the pilots not polled first?

ALPA most certainly does not speak for me if they continue with the pancake plan.
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Old 03-20-2021, 08:59 AM   #22  
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You guys make it sound like it's only the pilots on the NC that go in and negotiate. You do realize they have "seasoned, professional labor relation attorneys" that work for ALPA with them, right? Not to mention SMEs appropriate for the section being negotiated during that session.
Then how and why do these "seasoned, professional labor relation attorneys" continue to allow the soft ambiguous language into our contracts?

Pilot SMEs?? The only pilot SME I have been impressed with was KB on retirement and he was pushed out.
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Old 03-20-2021, 09:34 AM   #23  
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Yes Sir!!!! They act like we just take some regular Joe line guy and send him to negotiations on his own accord. Unreal the lack of knowledge of how things work by some in our pilot group. I think The Union just put out a communication in the last Positive Rate a few weeks ago explaining this whole topic. I guess they have no time to read the material but they have plenty of time to get on the forums and pound their chest.
How many FedEx contracts have you worked under? How many negotiations have you experienced here? Funny, the dude who best case has worked here for 5 years and worse case doesn’t even work here, knows everything because he/she read some ALPA propaganda. ALPA didn’t mind wasting OUR dues hiring outsiders to research and try to sell (via the worse modeler program ever) a new retirement Ponzi scheme. But they are adamantly opposed to outside negotiators because they just aren’t as smart as the line pilots. We play checkers while the company plays chess! It’s time to check the egos and hire professionals!

Last edited by FrankTheTank; 03-20-2021 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 03-20-2021, 11:26 AM   #24  
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How many FedEx contracts have you worked under? How many negotiations have you experienced here? Funny, the dude who best case has worked here for 5 years and worse case doesn’t even work here, knows everything because he/she read some ALPA propaganda. ALPA didn’t mind wasting OUR dues hiring outsiders to research and try to sell (via the worse modeler program ever) a new retirement Ponzi scheme. But they are adamantly opposed to outside negotiators because they just aren’t as smart as the line pilots. We play checkers while the company plays chess! It’s time to check the egos and hire professionals!
Frank,

You are doing just what I spoke of in my previous comment you quoted. This will be my first negotiations at FedEx, but not my first in my career by a long shot. I have been at another major during negotiations also, so I have seen this play out before. I have also seen those like you at the previous job micromanage and arm chair quarterback every move. Not being a smart arse, but if you have all the answers why not run for many of the positions that have been open for election recently? If you could/would do so much better why not step up? You spend considerable amounts of time on this forum laying out criticism so why not step up? As for me, I will support those doing the job. I will do my homework and trust, but verify the SME’s and consultants the union uses. I try to read all the material. I will vote when I am called on to do so. In my opinion the union is using all resources including surveys to include us as line pilots. Lets give them some credit for doing what me and you wont do. Don't you think?
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Old 03-20-2021, 11:39 AM   #25  
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Pilot SMEs?? The only pilot SME I have been impressed with was KB on retirement and he was pushed out.
KB was not pushed out. He left. He has had several opportunities and has chosen his path.

Some SME's are just the person willing to tackle the issue, others are experts. Agreed that needs to change. Get involved and volunteer.

The company pays for experts. I agree its time we do the same, but Pilots must be involved. Our quality of life and pay systems are very complex. I doubt you can find a negotiator that understands bidding for seats, training, vacation, lines, Our pay rates and the reasons behind them, 117, jumpseats, scope, healthcare, FAA medicals, RSA, DSA, Cash over the cap, etc. Pilots must be involved.

With all this said, What is ALPA saying on your behalf? None of us can say. Why, because they don't know yet either and openers can be passed 1 May this year. Nervous yet?
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Old 03-20-2021, 03:46 PM   #26  
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You guys make it sound like it's only the pilots on the NC that go in and negotiate. You do realize they have "seasoned, professional labor relation attorneys" that work for ALPA with them, right? Not to mention SMEs appropriate for the section being negotiated during that session.

This is probably a communication error on the MEC, if true. The MEC does a good job of describing the quarterly scheduling meetings between the MEC scheduling committee and the management scheduling personnel, including the the position held by each and every person in attendance at the meeting and subjects discussed. They need to do the same exact thing with each and every single bargaining session staring in May. Give names, positions, topics discussed, how many proposals and counter proposals were passed, any impasse on certain subjects, TAs reached, etc, as much information as possible while not giving away leverage.
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Old 03-20-2021, 04:29 PM   #27  
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KB was not pushed out. He left. He has had several opportunities and has chosen his path.

Some SME's are just the person willing to tackle the issue, others are experts. Agreed that needs to change. Get involved and volunteer.

The company pays for experts. I agree its time we do the same, but Pilots must be involved. Our quality of life and pay systems are very complex. I doubt you can find a negotiator that understands bidding for seats, training, vacation, lines, Our pay rates and the reasons behind them, 117, jumpseats, scope, healthcare, FAA medicals, RSA, DSA, Cash over the cap, etc. Pilots must be involved.

With all this said, What is ALPA saying on your behalf? None of us can say. Why, because they don't know yet either and openers can be passed 1 May this year. Nervous yet?
Nobody wants ‘just’ outside specialized contract/negotiation attorneys at the table. We want them PLUS our 3 negotiators. Professionals contract negotiators catch language like “lie flat seats” etc. Did our last pilots with “skin in the game”? (The 2 past ALPA negotiation attorneys I’ve experience through another airline have proved worthless) We can have BOTH at the table!! What people are failing to understand is the attorney ALPA provides us is the equivalent to the Memphis Redbirds. The company attorneys are the Yankees. Who’s gonna win that game? As far as skin in the game, (and I’ve witnessed this first hand), the ALPA attorney is more concerned about sealing a quick deal so he/she can make it back home to family. When someone is checking their watch multiple time trying to catch a flight home while simultaneously trying to sell you a $2 hot pistol TÁ...I believe they get paid the same no matter what our contract says. It is dumbfounding why certain members of this group are so resistant to extra help. Crappy CRM if you ask me.
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Old 03-20-2021, 05:19 PM   #28  
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It is different - this decision was made by a small group of pilots? What other financial advisor was invited to present a proposal? Why were the pilots not polled first?

ALPA most certainly does not speak for me if they continue with the pancake plan.
1000% agree. The only kind of pilot that would disagree with this statement is drinking too much Kool Aid.

Forcing the pancake plan will have tremendously negative ramifications in our workforce for decades. If the surveys were properly constructed, this conclusion would be obvious to the committees reviewing them. DR K
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Old 03-21-2021, 04:13 AM   #29  
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Forcing the pancake plan will have tremendously negative ramifications in our workforce for decades. If the surveys were properly constructed, this conclusion would be obvious to the committees reviewing them. DR K

Yes, this is 100% correct. If the MEC wants to divide the crew force, then they should continue down the path of "we know whats best for you."

If they truly want a unified crew force, they will actually ask the crew force what they want them to do about retirement. Vague or leading poll questions are not the way to gauge support for something as critical as changing our retirement. A contract that passes by 60% or less is a failure of the MEC and NC and a win for the company. A contract that has 90% support or greater is a win for the crew force and the MEC.

Until the MEC provides us a concrete plan for either increasing our current A plan, or gets a super majority vote by the crew force, (70% or greater) to change the structure of our DB plan, the MEC and NC do not speak for me and I will not support them.

It's better that the MEC and NC know now the kind of support they can expect based on their current actions and perceived strategy than to have another contract pass by 57%. If we want the contract that we think we deserve, we need to let the MEC know now what we will support. A former MEC Vice Chairman told me that the MEC thought that the 2015 contract wasn't good enough and would be rejected, but thought that they had to put it to a membership vote to keep the crew force from recalling them. We see what happened there.

If we actually were on the 3% annual pay raise line, our current pay rate for wide body captain would be $355 per hour in November of 2021. So how did the selling of contract 2015 go when the NC and most MEC members told us that they had exceeded the 3% line?
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Old 03-21-2021, 08:57 AM   #30  
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Then how and why do these "seasoned, professional labor relation attorneys" continue to allow the soft ambiguous language into our contracts?

Pilot SMEs?? The only pilot SME I have been impressed with was KB on retirement and he was pushed out.
I actually called ALPA about 4 administrations ago and spoke to a office pilot about “ we need to sure up the vague language that could be interpreted against us”. His almost exact quote was “we have to allow some flexibility for the company” You are correct if the in house council attorney’s have been so good in past way do we keep getting bit by vague language the ALPA attorneys signed off on? It’s either exactly like the ALPA rep told or huge repetitive mistakes by ALPA attorneys.

I remember the lay flat seat issue being brought up in the big ALPA meeting before the last contract vote. The smug NC said they had it in the notes etc how it was going to work and our concerns were not valid because of the notes. Well apparently the notes were either lost or non existent. No more side letters, secret hows it going to work, delayed implementation vagueness like the SLG or side agreements like the soft parameters that the company can just quit doing or anything not disclosed fully in the next contract to the crewforce.
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