Don't Go for the Head Fake
12-08-2021, 02:53 PM
#1
Aspiring PSA Captain
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 815
Don't Go for the Head Fake
As we've discussed here many times, it would certainly be possible to have much smaller and more frequent bids. I think the latest bid may have been an effort to put a bright, shiny object and its associated "pay raise" in everyone's pocket as we negotiate a contract.
1. An upgrade is not a pay raise, it's a change in position, responsibilities, and work assignments or QOL that may result in an increased W-2
2. Until you are checked out, you have nothing - things can turn on a dime. Its happened before.
3. There are a bunch of new(ish) folks here - longevity increases are not pay raises. Don't let those be substituted for substantial contract improvements.
4. Inflation is 7%, our current annual increase rate is now 0%. We are taking a pay cut as we speak.
Let's keep our eye on the ball. I am really concerned that this bid was as large as it was in part to placate the crew force during negotiations. Anecdotally, as I talk to folks, I'm afraid it's working.
1. An upgrade is not a pay raise, it's a change in position, responsibilities, and work assignments or QOL that may result in an increased W-2
2. Until you are checked out, you have nothing - things can turn on a dime. Its happened before.
3. There are a bunch of new(ish) folks here - longevity increases are not pay raises. Don't let those be substituted for substantial contract improvements.
4. Inflation is 7%, our current annual increase rate is now 0%. We are taking a pay cut as we speak.
Let's keep our eye on the ball. I am really concerned that this bid was as large as it was in part to placate the crew force during negotiations. Anecdotally, as I talk to folks, I'm afraid it's working.
12-08-2021, 03:02 PM
#2
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 16
I agree wholeheartedly…….however, upgrading does not preclude me from holding a hard line and demanding the best contract possible. For most of the young folks staring at that shiny object, it will take 12-18 months to upgrade, so we better have a contract before that happens. Flying your line, saying no to contract violations, etc, etc, is something that every crew member is responsible for.
How about this: let’s crack the whip on the crusty old captains continuously chasing $1M and not caring about the rest of the crew force because “they only have a couple years left”? From what I understand, it’s been smaller FO groups who have been uniform in holding the line in the past, and it’s those FO groups we have to thank for moving the company’s hand in the past. Time for the old left seaters to stand up to the violators.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How about this: let’s crack the whip on the crusty old captains continuously chasing $1M and not caring about the rest of the crew force because “they only have a couple years left”? From what I understand, it’s been smaller FO groups who have been uniform in holding the line in the past, and it’s those FO groups we have to thank for moving the company’s hand in the past. Time for the old left seaters to stand up to the violators.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
12-08-2021, 03:12 PM
#3
Aspiring PSA Captain
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 815
My intent wasn't to divide based on seniority, age, or anything else. The point is, if you're a WB Capt with 15 yrs or more, it's painfully obvious that the contract has gone stale. If you're in your 4th year here and you just got a WB Capt bid and a longevity pay increase, you might be a little more tempted not to "rock the boat".
Any contract improvements we don't get RIGHT NOW will have a compounding effect on the junior/younger over time. What we get now is the starting point for every contract for the rest of our careers.
I'm just saying let's not be distracted by a huge bid that didn't cost the company one red cent.
Any contract improvements we don't get RIGHT NOW will have a compounding effect on the junior/younger over time. What we get now is the starting point for every contract for the rest of our careers.
I'm just saying let's not be distracted by a huge bid that didn't cost the company one red cent.
12-08-2021, 06:01 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2019
Position: FO
Posts: 108
Dudes here for 4 years with a WB CA bid have never been thru a new contract. They don’t necessarily know enough to “rock the boat” or how to for that matter. Like previous poster said, it’s the 15 yr+ WB CA’s who need to raise cain and display a fiery leadership that the neophytes will follow to any end. As for me, I haven’t seen anyone willing to sing loud enough for me to hear or follow.
12-08-2021, 07:35 PM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2021
Posts: 446
So exactly how do I do that? At our last council meeting, I brought three resolutions. One tried to rally the troops around a maximum improvement on our A plan, spoiler alert it failed, badly. The next centered around being able to ask our unfiltered questions during PUB calls, you guest it, it failed as well, in fact it was not even seconded. And the third failed as well.
This group is going to get the contract they deserve. Failed leadership is but one cause.
If anyone has any good ideas which will help unify the pilots and bring some level of self worth to the pilots during negotiations, I'm all ears.
This group is going to get the contract they deserve. Failed leadership is but one cause.
If anyone has any good ideas which will help unify the pilots and bring some level of self worth to the pilots during negotiations, I'm all ears.
12-08-2021, 11:48 PM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: 757 CA
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by 901Dude
Dudes here for 4 years with a WB CA bid have never been thru a new contract. They don’t necessarily know enough to “rock the boat” or how to for that matter. Like previous poster said, it’s the 15 yr+ WB CA’s who need to raise cain and display a fiery leadership that the neophytes will follow to any end. As for me, I haven’t seen anyone willing to sing loud enough for me to hear or follow.
12-09-2021, 04:12 AM
#7
Custom User Title
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,269
Originally Posted by Thrust Hold
This isn’t the first airline or CBA negotiation for a lot of folks here that fall into that category.
12-09-2021, 05:13 AM
#8
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by Merle Haggard
As we've discussed here many times, it would certainly be possible to have much smaller and more frequent bids. I think the latest bid may have been an effort to put a bright, shiny object and its associated "pay raise" in everyone's pocket as we negotiate a contract.
1. An upgrade is not a pay raise, it's a change in position, responsibilities, and work assignments or QOL that may result in an increased W-2
2. Until you are checked out, you have nothing - things can turn on a dime. Its happened before.
3. There are a bunch of new(ish) folks here - longevity increases are not pay raises. Don't let those be substituted for substantial contract improvements.
4. Inflation is 7%, our current annual increase rate is now 0%. We are taking a pay cut as we speak.
Let's keep our eye on the ball. I am really concerned that this bid was as large as it was in part to placate the crew force during negotiations. Anecdotally, as I talk to folks, I'm afraid it's working.
1. An upgrade is not a pay raise, it's a change in position, responsibilities, and work assignments or QOL that may result in an increased W-2
2. Until you are checked out, you have nothing - things can turn on a dime. Its happened before.
3. There are a bunch of new(ish) folks here - longevity increases are not pay raises. Don't let those be substituted for substantial contract improvements.
4. Inflation is 7%, our current annual increase rate is now 0%. We are taking a pay cut as we speak.
Let's keep our eye on the ball. I am really concerned that this bid was as large as it was in part to placate the crew force during negotiations. Anecdotally, as I talk to folks, I'm afraid it's working.
12-09-2021, 08:04 AM
#9
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,838
Originally Posted by Tbags4ever
I agree wholeheartedly…….however, upgrading does not preclude me from holding a hard line and demanding the best contract possible. For most of the young folks staring at that shiny object, it will take 12-18 months to upgrade, so we better have a contract before that happens. Flying your line, saying no to contract violations, etc, etc, is something that every crew member is responsible for.
How about this: let’s crack the whip on the crusty old captains continuously chasing $1M and not caring about the rest of the crew force because “they only have a couple years left”? From what I understand, it’s been smaller FO groups who have been uniform in holding the line in the past, and it’s those FO groups we have to thank for moving the company’s hand in the past. Time for the old left seaters to stand up to the violators.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How about this: let’s crack the whip on the crusty old captains continuously chasing $1M and not caring about the rest of the crew force because “they only have a couple years left”? From what I understand, it’s been smaller FO groups who have been uniform in holding the line in the past, and it’s those FO groups we have to thank for moving the company’s hand in the past. Time for the old left seaters to stand up to the violators.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
YES!!!!!! You get it!!!
12-10-2021, 12:40 PM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 909
Originally Posted by 901Dude
Dudes here for 4 years with a WB CA bid have never been thru a new contract. They don’t necessarily know enough to “rock the boat” or how to for that matter. Like previous poster said, it’s the 15 yr+ WB CA’s who need to raise cain and display a fiery leadership that the neophytes will follow to any end. As for me, I haven’t seen anyone willing to sing loud enough for me to hear or follow.
Last contract, the MD FOs held the line (for the most part) and word got out that it was THAT group that had the company over a barrel whereas the WB CAs (for the most part) were bragging about new airplane purchases.
Lead by example and discuss how to handle ourselves in the cockpit. That’s what the 4 stripes are for!
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