Originally Posted by opt0712

Strike Vote coming. Get yer **** updated with the union NOW IS THE TIME.

Originally Posted by DrXavier

I'm breaking my rule of debating with strangers on the internet, but this comment has been in the back of my mind and I think it would be good for us as professional pilots to debate what I'm about to write.
To answer your question, I would say with a resounding yes that FDX and UPS pilots deserve industry leading compensation. I don't mean to come off as being arrogant, but I think I can use objective data to support my claim.

Firstly, let's look at the relationship between labor and the employer. Our employers compensate us to execute our jobs in order to garner revenue. To put it in other terms, think of us as soldiers that our employers send off to "war" to bring back dollars. For compensation, we agree to sacrifice our time, health, and sometimes our families. But instead of fighting for country, our objective is to make very rich men richer; that's it! Now, employers will play off of emotions and tell their employees that they are "saving the world" (in the case of Fed Ex) but at the end of the day, our management is using us to make themselves, the board, and the shareholders richer. I love flying airplanes, but am not afraid to call a spade a spade; we are cogs for rich men to use at their disposal. As pilots we are a very "unique" form of labor in that there are very high barriers to entry which means that very few folks actually qualify for this profession -- this is why Airlines have been lobbying to congress for a reduction in standards; if they have a bigger labor pool they can all race to the bottom in terms of providing our very specialized labor force with fair compensation.

Let's look at revenue generation to support my claim as to why FDX and UPS pilots deserve the most compensation. I know folks talk about a company's profitability, but in terms of a labor discussion I want to focus on revenue. Revenue is what the labor force generates for the company. Using my analogy above as being good little soldiers, our objective is to bring in revenue for the company. In terms of a cargo pilot, no revenue is generated for the company unless the crew moves a loaded plane from point A to point B. I'd argue that profitability is the focus and measure of management. It is management's job to extract as much profit from the revenue generated by their labor force. Management does this through their business strategy. Their strategy consists of market focus, capital investments, contractual relationships (in our case fuel and landing fees), depreciation strategies, tax strategies, debt strategies etc. Their strategies sometimes even consists of cheating their labor force of fair compensation, which unfortunately in the industry happens all too often. Pilots can affect profitability at a micro level; for example, single engine taxi reduces fuel expense which lowers operating expenses, which increases profit; also, an aviation mishap would catastrophically effect profit-- something pilots have direct control over. I don't mean that to sound grim, but only highlight that there is a lot of responsibility riding on our shoulder which again I go back to my point of fair compensation. Rambling aside, the goal of management is to extract as much profit from the revenue that labor generates; we refer to this number as profit margin. Interestingly enough, the managers in charge today by and large went to business school in the 80's and 90's. The hotness back then was to increase profitability through efficiencies. The Japanese companies were killing US companies through a process called Six Sigma which basically entails ID'ing and cutting inefficiencies. When I got my MBA in the late 2000's the focus was not so much in shrinking inefficiencies; the focus was on generating more value so customers would come back and/or you could charge more for your product or service. Fed Ex is failing at this; instead management would rather cheat their labor force out of fair compensation instead of fixing the problems (like Fed Ex Ground) that are destroying the company's intrinsic value. Back to the discussion, below is a list of each company's generated revenue, profit margin, and # of pilots on the seniority list. Side note, UPS and FDX are the only two companies on the Fortune 100 List ranking in at 34 and 39 respectively. None of the Big 4 pax carriers made the list.

UPS
2022 Revenue: $101.7 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 11.07%
# of Pilots: 3446

Fed Ex
2022 Revenue: $93.5 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 6.7%
# of Pilots: 6000

Delta:
2022 Revenue: $50.50 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 2.6%
# of Pilots: 14561

United:
2022 Revenue: $44.95 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 1.64%
# of Pilots: 15014

American
2022 Revenue: $48.972 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 0.26%
# of Pilots: 15381

Hawaiian (who is paying their WB CA's $436/hr)
2021 Revenue (could not find 2022): $2.8 Billion
Could not find Margin
# of Pilots: 847

As you can see, Fed Ex and UPS generate more revenue than all of the legacies and with a smaller pilot force (yes I get there are more diversified segments to these companies but the counterargument is that pax carriers generate a lot of revenue through their credit card agreements). In terms of revenue generation Fed Ex and UPS pilots are more efficient and deserve to be compensated more. If you think that's an arrogant statement, it's the same logic that companies use to pay WB pilots more than NB pilots; the argument is that WB aircraft have more space and therefore generate more revenue for the company.

Going back to my statement above about us being "good little soldiers," I'd argue that Fed Ex and UPS pilots sacrifice their health more than pax carrier pilots. For our domestic guys at Fed Ex, hub turns are HARD on your body. I consider myself to be healthy, in good shape and actually a night owl, however a week of hubturns wears on me. In a given month I want to spend time with my friends and family during normal hours during the week and then go back to a hub turn schedule, then go back to a normal schedule. This $Hit is scientifically proven to shorten your life and cause health issues. I was willing to do it for my country and the mission in the military, but If I'm doing it to make rich men richer, then I deserve to be compensated appropriately! Our International guys made a lot of money and they deserved every penny of it. The were asked to fly to countries with harsh COVID restrictions, poked and prodded, sprayed with God knows what, locked into hotel rooms eating whatever crap was given to them, and on the verge of losing their sanity. Fed Ex and I'm sure UPS asks us to do other things that other carriers don't ask of their pilots. COVID aside, they ask us to go to unfriendly countries (anyone remember the Fed Ex pilot that was arrested in China?), fly through weather most pax carriers wouldn't consider, and do all of that while most of the time being fatigued. In addition, the crap that we carry on our airplanes is the crap that none of the pax carriers are allowed to carry. Anyone remember UPS Flt 6 that crashed in Dubai due to a fire caused by lithium batteries? Cargo pilots are exposed to more dangerous and unhealthy conditions than their legacy pilot equivalents.

Finally as I mentioned above, there is a limited talent pool of qualified pilots. As the legacies have dropped their PIC requirement, Fed Ex still requires 500 Jet PIC (1000 preferred) and UPS requires 1000 jet PIC. These companies are asking for an even more qualified pilot in an already very small pool. As such, I expected to be compensated more for my qualifications. It is my prediction that these companies have higher standards because they want more mature and experienced pilots; they want pilots who will make more mature operational decisions in the aircraft and conduct themselves in a manner that doesn't reflect poorly on the company. At the end of the day, it buys down risk for the company. Fed Ex has a crew force of former astronauts (so I've been told), retired Generals, retired military Flight Demo Pilots, former Test Pilots, former Regional Chief Pilots, successful business owners, folks with law degrees and MBA's and folks with degrees in rocket science and more! The Fed Ex pilot force is one of the most densely talented groups of people in not only aviation, but quite frankly any industry-- our folks deserve to be compensated appropriately!

So yes, it's not arrogance but factual data that Fed Ex and UPS pilots deserve to be compensated more. I'll be honest; I feel a little cheated when my Narrowbody buddy at United is making $3k/mo more than me (I'm on a Widebody) while he gets to spend a week in the Carribbean working less days than me while I'm doing AM hub turns. Especially while my company is crying about slowing demand yet they are meanwhile buying back stock and enjoying record profits. We deserve industry leading everything and I hope every Fed Ex pilot understands how valuable they are!

Originally Posted by Anthrax

ALL the information I complained about? I asked about a diagram, a flow chart, mainly because in 2015 tons of folks were afraid of voting no for fear of the unknown. And still, the flow chart is inadequate, it doesn’t go past self-help, but I suppose you’re going to say that that information is readily available, just hunt and peck.

My point is, we pay these guys a ton of money to do what, exactly? Engagement is a two way street, and our “leaders” should lead, by being far more proactive than they are. simply put: They aren’t engaged with the crew force, they have sent out very little in the way of information on anything. They are nearly impossible to reach, and rarely return phone calls or emails, and have subjugated their responsibilities to the Dart program. Ask around the pilot group their perspective of our union leadership with regards to contract enforcement, and guys will roll their eyes and say, why bother? I can’t even begin to tell you the horror stories of blatant disregard to the contract, and our union stating that they won’t dispute it, putting that responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the offended pilot.

It seems, in my opinion, that our “leadership “ serves ALPA national, and not the pilot group. And this is why our engagement is so low. they serve up, not down.

so come at me all you want about how stupid I am, how lazy I am, and my love for the delicious snack, Doritos, but do not tell me that our union is strong. Our pilots have been disenfranchised from the process of how our dues are being spent, what our leaders are doing with their time at the helm, and until we get leaders willing to serve the most junior pilot among us, leasers who want to fight for better conditions for all, and not for themselves, than nothing will change. How many guys go into these non-flying gigs so as not to fly night hub turns? Most, I’d say. and then they forget the horror of a two a.m. alarm followed by a 4 a.m. launch, as they casually go about their day answering emails from home at ten a.m. and I’m the bad guy for pointing this out!

Originally Posted by FXLAX

Question, what do you think happens if we reach self help? Maybe I’m not understanding your issue here.

As for our leadership, how exactly are they serving ALPA national? What do they (mec reps) getting in return for “serving” them? Maybe I simply don’t know what “serving ALPA national” even looks like?

Originally Posted by DrXavier

UPS
2022 Revenue: $101.7 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 11.07%
# of Pilots: 3446

Fed Ex
2022 Revenue: $93.5 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 6.7%
# of Pilots: 6000

Delta:
2022 Revenue: $50.50 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 2.6%
# of Pilots: 14561

United:
2022 Revenue: $44.95 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 1.64%
# of Pilots: 15014

American
2022 Revenue: $48.972 Billion
2022 Profit Margin: 0.26%
# of Pilots: 15381

Hawaiian (who is paying their WB CA's $436/hr)
2021 Revenue (could not find 2022): $2.8 Billion
Could not find Margin
# of Pilots: 847

Originally Posted by BrianH

The real question is what are they protecting by not stepping it up. If they don't do anything more than the minimum, they feel safer. Now is the time for leadership. In fact it is kind of like our 401Ks after 50, it is time for catchup leadership!

Serving ALPA is about ALPA's best interest. Pay rates are duesable. Your QOL is not. I am going to bet we will again give up QOL for money, Just like '15. Anyone here like working harder for the same credit hours?

Not getting sued costs less. Set no bar, and there is no bar to be judged against. So we get platitudes and trust the process. #not leadership

Originally Posted by khergan

This is a gigantic cope.

You don't have any additional skills that any other ATP carrying pilot has. You're not special.

Originally Posted by Whoopsmybad

Although I can see your arguments, using 2022 numbers, at the cargo haulers will still reaping COVID rewards and the pax carriers were still in recovery and posted losses the first 1/2 the year isn’t a good comparison. Some pax markets are still shut off and severely reduced (China), and no one has fully recovered international flying, especially the Pacific.

As far as “standards”, that’s a choice FedEx makes and keeps the qualified applicant pool smaller (for a time). Because you checked a couple more boxes to get hired does not make you a better pilot. More experienced, yes (maybe). Better, no.

Originally Posted by FXLAX

Again, maybe I'm not seeing it. But how do MEC reps benefit from more duesable income?

Originally Posted by FXLAX

You guys are getting caught up on a straw man c2078 made up. This all began with c2078 response to my post saying fedex should have the best of everything. I never said Fedex pilots are better than anyone. He accused me of that and you all ran with it. This is why I didn't bother answering him until he at least answered my two questions first. I wasn't going to dignify his response because his insinuation that I was denigrating pilots from other airlines, which you all fell for. I you go back and read what I said, I simply opined that for what we do here, we should be industry leading in every section of our contract. Is that debatable? Maybe, but what is not debatable is that what c2078 said was anything other than a straw man fallacy that is common in a debate tactic used when you feel you have a losing hand.

Originally Posted by BrianH

They seek less controversy. Leadership involves risk.