Thoughts...
03-14-2023, 01:21 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 128
[QUOTE=UnusualAttitude;3607651]Johnny come lately here looking over at the neighbor's yard = Pilots expecting FDX ALPA to take advantage of pattern bargaining.
"Pattern Bargaining: Collective bargaining in which the union tries to apply similar pay and work rules to multiple employers in the same industry. ALPA, through the national Collective Bargaining Committee, works to establish, maintain, and advance the prevailing pay rates and working conditions for each segment of the industry by coordinating bargaining strategies with MECs and Negotiating Committees across ALPA properties." Source: ALPA Negotiations Training Seminar Glossary
The history of furloughs is very likely not doomed to repeat itself in my view. The passenger airline industry has changed in two very significant ways. First, consolidation has created 4 massive carriers that all contribute massively to the US economy and more importantly to the systematic functioning of the US economy. The Covid-19 pandemic saw exactly zero pilots furloughed from major passenger carriers. The government (doesn't matter what your feeling are on government bailouts, they happened) determined that providing money to the passenger airlines was important to avoid bankruptcies and further widespread damage to the economy. Don't be mistaken, the only reason the money was earmarked for salaries was because it's the easiest political sell. Who votes for these politicians? People do. If the money had been given and told it was for "debt servicing" the employees would have revolted. In the end, it didn't really matter what the money was for. The passenger airline CEO's went to congress and said this is how much we need to meet all current obligations. The government provided that amount. Secondly, record numbers of retirements due to past industry stagnation are coming. In the post 9/11 world airlines knew they wouldn't need pilots for a long time. They gutted the career. It doesn't take the IQ of a rocket scientist to fly airplanes but there is some relative intelligence required. I work with some of the smartest people in the world and I know many of them would have been successful doing other things. That being said, throughout the early 2000's many intelligent people who may have had an interest in flying knew that they could do better for themselves and their families in other career fields. Now we have a major shortage and you see what are basically European style airline sponsored ab initio training programs sprouting up around the US. Even with some economic headwinds, the need to replace retiring pilots will outpace most setbacks for many years to come.
To you last point, "they actually fly passengers", are you suggesting that because we fly freight we should be so thankful that we accept to fly at a discount? These passenger pilots also spend the majority of their career flying in the day time and not wrecking their body clock 15-19 days a month. Many of them commute in the day their trip begins and sleep in their own bed the day their trip ends. In a decade of flying passengers I can count on one hand the number of issues I have had with flight attendants or passengers. How many stories have you heard of pilot v pilot conflicts? My guess is plenty. It's time for us to stop acting like not having to "deal with passengers and flight attendants" is some type of contractual benefit. I wonder what the guys who hate other humans so much are like at home?
Whatever homie
"Pattern Bargaining: Collective bargaining in which the union tries to apply similar pay and work rules to multiple employers in the same industry. ALPA, through the national Collective Bargaining Committee, works to establish, maintain, and advance the prevailing pay rates and working conditions for each segment of the industry by coordinating bargaining strategies with MECs and Negotiating Committees across ALPA properties." Source: ALPA Negotiations Training Seminar Glossary
The history of furloughs is very likely not doomed to repeat itself in my view. The passenger airline industry has changed in two very significant ways. First, consolidation has created 4 massive carriers that all contribute massively to the US economy and more importantly to the systematic functioning of the US economy. The Covid-19 pandemic saw exactly zero pilots furloughed from major passenger carriers. The government (doesn't matter what your feeling are on government bailouts, they happened) determined that providing money to the passenger airlines was important to avoid bankruptcies and further widespread damage to the economy. Don't be mistaken, the only reason the money was earmarked for salaries was because it's the easiest political sell. Who votes for these politicians? People do. If the money had been given and told it was for "debt servicing" the employees would have revolted. In the end, it didn't really matter what the money was for. The passenger airline CEO's went to congress and said this is how much we need to meet all current obligations. The government provided that amount. Secondly, record numbers of retirements due to past industry stagnation are coming. In the post 9/11 world airlines knew they wouldn't need pilots for a long time. They gutted the career. It doesn't take the IQ of a rocket scientist to fly airplanes but there is some relative intelligence required. I work with some of the smartest people in the world and I know many of them would have been successful doing other things. That being said, throughout the early 2000's many intelligent people who may have had an interest in flying knew that they could do better for themselves and their families in other career fields. Now we have a major shortage and you see what are basically European style airline sponsored ab initio training programs sprouting up around the US. Even with some economic headwinds, the need to replace retiring pilots will outpace most setbacks for many years to come.
To you last point, "they actually fly passengers", are you suggesting that because we fly freight we should be so thankful that we accept to fly at a discount? These passenger pilots also spend the majority of their career flying in the day time and not wrecking their body clock 15-19 days a month. Many of them commute in the day their trip begins and sleep in their own bed the day their trip ends. In a decade of flying passengers I can count on one hand the number of issues I have had with flight attendants or passengers. How many stories have you heard of pilot v pilot conflicts? My guess is plenty. It's time for us to stop acting like not having to "deal with passengers and flight attendants" is some type of contractual benefit. I wonder what the guys who hate other humans so much are like at home?
Whatever homie
03-14-2023, 04:31 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by Topgum
Ha, only 10 years for me! It’s a very different place at the regionals now. The pilot referenced is pushing 60. It makes sense for him only because of age. He’s confident that he’d never make an equivalent amount (in 5 years) at FedEx under the current circumstances. With the low first year pay at Fedex and huge short term contracts + incentive at the regionals it was a no brainer.
ahh, I see. Took it as someone with a full career ahead
03-14-2023, 06:16 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: MD11 FO
Posts: 128
[QUOTE=Moosefire;3607763]
What do you disagree with?
Just your general demeanor and decision to try and make a personal attack.
you do you.
Ive been here a while. Love my job. Want to be paid what we deserve.
Tbh, sorry, you seem like a db to me but this is the internet so….
Originally Posted by pig on the wing
What do you disagree with?
Just your general demeanor and decision to try and make a personal attack.
you do you.
Ive been here a while. Love my job. Want to be paid what we deserve.
Tbh, sorry, you seem like a db to me but this is the internet so….
03-14-2023, 06:17 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Position: MD-11/C-17
Posts: 257
[QUOTE=pig on the wing;3607823]
Just your general demeanor and decision to try and make a personal attack.
you do you.
Ive been here a while. Love my job. Want to be paid what we deserve.
Tbh, sorry, you seem like a db to me but this is the internet so….
ummm dude I’m not who you responded to, but maybe anyone that questions you is a DB?
Originally Posted by Moosefire
Just your general demeanor and decision to try and make a personal attack.
you do you.
Ive been here a while. Love my job. Want to be paid what we deserve.
Tbh, sorry, you seem like a db to me but this is the internet so….
03-14-2023, 06:56 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 795
Originally Posted by oncewasgood
A couple items you said that isn’t true from reading the pax forums.
1) Most trips are commutable. That is very dependent on base, fleet and seniority. A lot of uncomputable pairings in the major pax world.
2) International is international. Regardless of airline. Body clock flips and day/night changes with body clock. Remember those big pay rates ONLY exist on the international fleets at the pax. At FedEx you can fly Widebody to DTW and back on day turns if you want the highest rates and no body clock changes.
3) Anyone working 19 days a month at FedEx is doing it to themselves. Not required by line construction.
I understand the need for improvements but let’s not make stuff up or post misleading information.
1) Most trips are commutable. That is very dependent on base, fleet and seniority. A lot of uncomputable pairings in the major pax world.
2) International is international. Regardless of airline. Body clock flips and day/night changes with body clock. Remember those big pay rates ONLY exist on the international fleets at the pax. At FedEx you can fly Widebody to DTW and back on day turns if you want the highest rates and no body clock changes.
3) Anyone working 19 days a month at FedEx is doing it to themselves. Not required by line construction.
I understand the need for improvements but let’s not make stuff up or post misleading information.
2. I don’t disagree with you there, that’s hoping that ALPA is actually asking for DL 330/765/330 rates. Otherwise, no advantage.
3. 19 days in a 5 week bid month. That’s not an opinion.
03-15-2023, 07:17 AM
#39
Aspiring PSA Captain
Joined APC: Sep 2020
Posts: 815
Originally Posted by Huck
I know what's going to happen:
1. Delta's going to furlough someday
2. Folks are going to be real glad they stayed here
Yeah, I know, I'm an old guy who's been in this business for 30 years, and my father was in it for 25 years before that. I should keep my mouth shut.
I just can't cope with this brave new world where the airline business cycle's been defeated. Sounds too much like wishful thinking to me.
We'll see who's right.
1. Delta's going to furlough someday
2. Folks are going to be real glad they stayed here
Yeah, I know, I'm an old guy who's been in this business for 30 years, and my father was in it for 25 years before that. I should keep my mouth shut.
I just can't cope with this brave new world where the airline business cycle's been defeated. Sounds too much like wishful thinking to me.
We'll see who's right.
03-15-2023, 05:54 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 795
Originally Posted by BlueMoon
13 in a 28 day bid month (4 week). 16 in a 35 day bid month (5 week).
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