Originally Posted by Shaman (Post 3630687)

No you watched the same video and you heard the same language. What you heard "The facts are clear our pilots will not ratify a deal with UPS pay rates in them....and we will continue to march down the RLA path as its necessary to get the pay rates that the pilots will ratify" Ratifiable is not industry leading and when taken with "In conjunction with everything else that's been TA'd". The word conjunction means combined with. If he meant Industry leading pay rates that's clearly not what he said. Continuing to say we didn't even consider the outrageous proposals the company put forth isn't an argument with any merit.

I've seen this movie before and I remember how it ends.

Originally Posted by JackStraw (Post 3630588)

For those who may have missed it; PM summarily said: I can’t believe you unconscionable pilots hired after 2015 only care about protecting your jobs when we have guys who are more than ready to retire with a new and improved retirement plan. Sure, they’re going to retire in the next 3 years anyway but isn’t it more important that they retire NOW much richer than they are today than it is to worry about scope? Besides, the company needs to be able to compete. If that means they contract out more flying to undercut UPS and DHL then isn’t that for everyone’s benefit? Stop being so selfish.

Originally Posted by threeighteen (Post 3630604)

I just simply don't feel too bad for any captain retiring right now under the current terms. If your financial house isn't in order to retire with the current pension after the opportunities of the last 3 years and your 401k isn't fat, a pension bump isn't going to save you. You have budgeting problems, and you had the opportunity to organize an effort to fix the pension in the previous CBAs.

Originally Posted by Merle Haggard (Post 3630742)

For all the junior folks who have their undergarments in a wad and say that "you had your chance to fix retirement", we have kept 4.a.2.b and improved it with 4.a.2.c and we doubled first year pay in the last contract (I realize it still sucks). If you don't think the company wishes they could just furlough you're wrong. Negotiating capital was spent in ways that were of no benefit (in fact potentially negative impact) to senior pilots and those approaching retirement. Knock it off with the divisive garbage about retirement - it's disingenuous and inaccurate. (For clarity, I am multiple contracts away from retirement)

Originally Posted by TomAce (Post 3630751)

it’s FedEx management making a couple more poor decisions that leads to bankruptcy or a buyout. They already totally mismanaged the covid e-commerce boom which is why we’re in this mess. It’s no guarantee the company restructure works out without even more hit to the brand and customer service.

Originally Posted by jackryan (Post 3630762)

Agreed. Big threat.

Originally Posted by Merle Haggard (Post 3630742)

For all the junior folks who have their undergarments in a wad and say that "you had your chance to fix retirement", we have kept 4.a.2.b and improved it with 4.a.2.c and we doubled first year pay in the last contract (I realize it still sucks). If you don't think the company wishes they could just furlough you're wrong. Negotiating capital was spent in ways that were of no benefit (in fact potentially negative impact) to senior pilots and those approaching retirement. Knock it off with the divisive garbage about retirement - it's disingenuous and inaccurate. (For clarity, I am multiple contracts away from retirement)

Originally Posted by TomAce (Post 3630713)

Before that at 19:23 he says: “clearly we’ve maintained our goals, which is industry leading pay.”

Originally Posted by Shaman (Post 3630775)

I'll see you back here whenever he presents the TA. I'm willing to confess how wrong I was with out a single hesitation

Are you willing to admit you've been mislead and vote accordingly? Or will you come back and equivocate and explain when PM says given the environment and the declining yields this was the best we could do?
.

Originally Posted by TomAce (Post 3630751)

Fortunately not all junior pilots are like this. I have 20+ years and realize scope can’t be reopened at this point. Besides the biggest threat to job security isn’t scope, it’s FedEx management making a couple more poor decisions that leads to bankruptcy or a buyout. They already totally mismanaged the covid e-commerce boom which is why we’re in this mess. It’s no guarantee the company restructure works out without even more hit to the brand and customer service.

Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 3630712)

If you want to know the context of the quotes, click the links. It's not that hard. What your past quotes show is your attitude prior to FedEx announcing the changes they are making and now. When that last survey that you were happy with came out, we were already talking about and were buying up lines.

Originally Posted by pinseeker (Post 3630718)

Another statement that shows your lack of knowledge concerning retirement and IRS limits. Are you also suggesting that senior pilots should be doing all of the flying that they can prior to retirement? Sounds like it. What if those in the top half of the seniority list said the same thing about furloughs to keep BLG's higher. What if they argued that we should furlough the bottom 20% of the list to keep BLG's higher. After the last 2-3 years, those pilots should have had their financial house in order and all of the majors are hiring. Wouldn't that be unconscionable?

Originally Posted by Merle Haggard (Post 3630742)

For all the junior folks who have their undergarments in a wad and say that "you had your chance to fix retirement", we have kept 4.a.2.b and improved it with 4.a.2.c and we doubled first year pay in the last contract (I realize it still sucks). If you don't think the company wishes they could just furlough you're wrong. Negotiating capital was spent in ways that were of no benefit (in fact potentially negative impact) to senior pilots and those approaching retirement. Knock it off with the divisive garbage about retirement - it's disingenuous and inaccurate. (For clarity, I am multiple contracts away from retirement)

Originally Posted by Greenhorn (Post 3630770)

saying negotiating capital was used to double first year pay is absolutely nothing to brag about even back in 2015. It’s still insulting at 4k/MO and it’s paired with no housing throughout training.

Originally Posted by Shaman (Post 3630775)

I'll see you back here whenever he presents the TA. I'm willing to confess how wrong I was with out a single hesitation

Are you willing to admit you've been mislead and vote accordingly? Or will you come back and equivocate and explain when PM says given the environment and the declining yields this was the best we could do?

I am not gonna blindly trust them to put out what will be ratified. The last POS agreement was ratified by 57% I don't have a single reason to believe we aren't marching down the same path. In fact the more PM speaks the more uneasy I feel and the more people spread the message of furloughs and doom and gloom the more certain I am that's where this road ends. Its what the company wants.

Don't give me slides talking about volumes and declining yields. Don't tell me about possibly losing section 28. Its not the only thing that matters and I'm not accepting a single give back to improve that section. NOT A SINGLE ONE.

Everyone is free to do what they like and believe what they want, but I'm not waiting till everyone's position is committed to start questioning things. The NC/MEC can still change things. We don't have to be presented with a TA and vote it down to change priorities. The time and money spent are sunk costs so stop referring to them.

Originally Posted by threeighteen (Post 3630909)

Buying up lines is fine.... except when contractors are flying our freight on routes we have the authority to. Same with closing bases. If volume declines, so be it. If volume declines, but we reduce our in house flying instead of contractor flying... that's where I take issue with it.

THEIR CONTRACT IS COMING TO AN END. STOP LYING.

we were told that the flying secured in covid was secure for 7 years, that theres no way it would go back to the pax carriers because we signed 7 year deals... we were lied to. If we had known that we were being lied to, that would have changed the calculus.

WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

No. I'm willing to hold the line for retro retirement for all since amendable date. Most senior people are not willing to hold the line to fix the rest of this awful CBA as long as sec 28 is fixed. That's the issue. I want them to get a better retirement, but I'm also not going to shed a tear if they sleep in the bed they made. I'm not willing to accept a deal with concessions just so they can retire richer when they're already going to retire rich.

I'm very knowledgeable about IRS limits thanks. And yes, senior pilots who aren't in good financial situations should have been flying their tails off during covid to get ready for retirement... everyone else was. You act like that's a ridiculous concept but its not.

We should absolutely be furloughing those of us on the bottom part of the list. 4.a.2.c benefits the company. Allows them to pay almost all of us less and gives them flexibility.

TEAM PLAYER YOU ARE

Nobody asked for 4.a.2.b to be kept, or improved. It benefits the company, not us.

YES WE DID, TO HELP PREVENT FURLOUGH OF FUTURE FEDEX PILOTS.

Welcome to FedEx! This. I'm not paying PM to sell the company's position to me or engage in expectation management.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631008)

*******FILLER****** See answers above in bold

Originally Posted by threeighteen (Post 3631014)

ASL's contract is not coming to an end. I'm not lying. Wish I was.

The company and union bragged about the 7 year deals.

4.a.2.b just allows the company to pay us less and keeps us in "low paid standby mode"

Let them furlough, or at least try it. They'd announce it and then realize the training costs of bringing everyone back would be more than what it was worth, and take too long.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631166)

ASL was part of the deal with TNT. It existed before you chose FedEx as your best. Nobody yet has shown that we’ve lost flying in Europe to ASL. IMO, we significantly increased flying because we took/leased their three TNT B777s and we no longer task their 747s … our 777s picked up those routes. You probably weren’t around to see TNT 747s using FedEx call signs. Nor were you around to hear about the donnybrooks between TNT-ASL and FDX crews in CDG when the Europeans found out Americans were taking their jobs. Your account of what’s happened is widely inaccurate. The 737s in FedEx livery happened in 2017. They were TNT livery birds before at LGG. The sky isn’t falling. Yes, we need to address scope after this contract.

You’re wrong. The company, specifically Brie Carere EVP and Chief Customer Officer of FedEx, said in earnings calls during COVID that they were trying to get long term deals with new customers. Whether they screwed up who knows? Demand for package delivery fell for ALL cargo operators not just FedEx in 2022. Amazon closed warehouses. UPS is parking MD-11a. And no the union didn’t promise anything about 7 year deals. If anything they just repeated what the company said. The union is not told any information about the business model except for what they hear publicly.

Again, lies and half truths with you. You are not a victim.

Let the record forever show that you’re whining about your perception that older pilots are ignoring the scope issue at the risk of your career, but you have no problem with deleting 4A2 and furloughing junior pilots.

You’ve got yours, right 3-18?

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631166)

ASL was part of the deal with TNT. It existed before you chose FedEx as your best. Nobody yet has shown that we’ve lost flying in Europe to ASL. IMO, we significantly increased flying because we took/leased their three TNT B777s and we no longer task their 747s … our 777s picked up those routes. You probably weren’t around to see TNT 747s using FedEx call signs. Nor were you around to hear about the donnybrooks between TNT-ASL and FDX crews in CDG when the Europeans found out Americans were taking their jobs. Your account of what’s happened is widely inaccurate. The 737s in FedEx livery happened in 2017. They were TNT livery birds before at LGG. The sky isn’t falling. Yes, we need to address scope after this contract.

Originally Posted by threeighteen (Post 3631173)

If we furlough, I will either be furloughed or taking a voluntary leave. This isn’t about getting mine. It’s about doing right by the group, and doing right by the pilot group doesn’t mean taking concessions or neglecting to lock down scope just to improve section 28 as fast as we can.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631166)

Nobody yet has shown that we’ve lost flying in Europe to ASL.

Originally Posted by magic rat (Post 3631176)

ASL CDG scheduled departures 2May.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631277)

You haven't made a point.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631277)

You haven't made a point.

Originally Posted by coryk (Post 3631246)

Do you fly over here? I'm a 757 CA here in EUR.

I flew a week of BER hub turns last summer, ASL does that now. I flew to BUD this winter, ASL does that now. I went to Porto, Portugal... ASL. We stopped flying to CPH and HEL to pick up those other cities... well, ASL just does all of them now. Oh, and the base is closing.

Last year we had 36 hard lines with a BLG of 76 for a 4-week bid month and 7 VTO's, plus 5 R lines. For May we have 34, with a BLG of 66. 11 VTO's and 17 R lines. If we didn't lose flying, well, idk where it went then.

Originally Posted by magic rat (Post 3631312)

It’s also obvious to me that fdx planned this ASL transfer a looooong time ago…easily a year or so before they broke ground on the new ramp space. They didn’t just turn this on when coming up with DRIVE, they knew, they had to get funding for the build by showing it’ll save them money.

Originally Posted by Rum Runner (Post 3631293)

Seriously? He's made the entire point. What other point are you looking for?

Tomorrow morning, May 2nd, the following cities will be flown from CDG by ASL pilots that until recently, were flown by FedEx CGN pilots.

ARN
BER
CGN (Irony)
CPH
OPO
BUD
HEL

Other posters, including myself, have outlined the block hour decrease in CGN. If you don't see what's happening right now...can't really help you.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631330)

36 to 34 doesn't sound like the sky is falling. What is the company and union telling you guys? Seems to me, and yes I agree it sucks, that they down gauged from 757 to 737 on some routes.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631330)

36 to 34 doesn't sound like the sky is falling. What is the company and union telling you guys? Seems to me, and yes I agree it sucks, that they down gauged from 757 to 737 on some routes. Are there still Airbus and 767 routes? Did those go away too?

I put in an Insite to the company. Now I get it that this is from Flight Operations and not the C Suite Managers but they said the flying will be filled via SIBA or lines flown from the USA, like they did before CGN base.

Originally Posted by coryk (Post 3631351)

Only down 2 lines because they are able to build into the 60’s with 5-10hrs buy up. Nearly twice the amount of secondary and reserve lines.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631388)

This sounds more the an economy or sales problem, not a scope problem.

You didn’t mention what the union or company has said about this.

Originally Posted by threeighteen (Post 3631392)

Uh no. It’s a scope problem. We’re closing a base and losing flying while a subcontractor is thriving. 100% a scope problem.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631388)

This sounds more the an economy or sales problem, not a scope problem.

You didn’t mention what the union or company has said about this.

Originally Posted by UnusualAttitude (Post 3631402)

PM going through a list of airlines that are out of business (and two that aren’t actually out of business in the context presented) and blaming their business failures on Scope was the second most elementary and insulting part of his update.

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631445)

there's a balance between tying the company's hands at a time when they're most focused on competing and they're concerned about the overall company survival compared to its competitors.

Originally Posted by PW305 (Post 3631449)

$5 billion in share repurchases in the last 18 months and two dividend raises in the last 12… and we’re worried that better contract language will make the company uncompetitive?

Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox (Post 3631445)

PM, clearly said how there's a balance between tying the company's hands at a time when they're most focused on competing and they're concerned about the overall company survival compared to its competitors. Will FedEx management compete better with UPS and DHL to preserve everybody's jobs..

Originally Posted by Freighthumper (Post 3631491)

I dont think there is currently an existential threat to FedEx’s survival(besides management). If there was, we wouldn’t be buying back all this stock and paying higher dividends. By competing, I think the true meaning is competing for the most profitable and highest share price possible partly due to outsourcing high cost labor. When said labor is outsourced, we will either need less pilots(didn’t preserve jobs), or will shrink due to attrition(No growth for new guys).

I get that we can’t reopen scope at this point in negotiations, and that our original priorities are being negotiated for. But this isn’t April of 2021 anymore. If they get a TA and it doesn’t pass, we need to re evaluate our priorities as a whole. Ive got 20 years left, I can wait a couple more if it means a more secure future. It really is a shame that like PM said, every month people are retiring with no pension increase. I really mean that. But, 56% of those people that retire every month voted yes in 2015 to a contract that didn’t raise then pension when they had a chance to.

Originally Posted by Nightflyer (Post 3631494)

Your last statement is BS. You don't know which 56% voted yes for the contract in 2015. Most of them probably already left.

Originally Posted by Nightflyer (Post 3631494)

Your last statement is BS. You don't know which 56% voted yes for the contract in 2015. Most of them probably already left.