FDX passover pay question
 

I'm on the 757 right seat with medium seniority, and am going to the 767 with medium seniority.

Q: How does changing your training date effect passover pay?

Someone offered to trade training dates. I'm scheduled in May of '16, and the other person is in the second half of '17.

-If I trade training dates, what happens if someone junior to me activates in the seat? Or what if they hire off the street into the 767?

Do I still get passover pay?

Thanx! Beers all around....

Talk to the union and get the current official answer until the company decides to do it differently and the union agrees with them.

If you want to trade you will need to get everyone that is between you and the junior person you are trading with to agree to waive Passover pay. You would think it would be easy but we have some guys that think they are getting screwed so they will not waive it. Go onto VIPs and under general there is a section for trading training dates. Tells you what you need to do.

Once you hold a seat award and someone junior to you activates who you didn't agree to let jump ahead (ie trade) you should be eligible for Passover pay. But if you trade your date you do give up some Passover rights. You need to talk to CE before you trade.

I am a MEM 757 FO with a 2017 MEM 767 "differences training" date. The training letter indicates the company is putting new hires directly into the MEM 767 starting in Jan of next year. I assumed everyone in my position would start receiving passover pay once the first new hire activated but I have heard a rumor that the company does not see it that way. Since the new hires will be enrolled in "initial" training and I will be in "differences" training, passover pay is not given because they are different training courses. I haven't talked to the union yet...just wondering if anyone had any insight.

Thanks

It's not a rumor. That is the company position and our Association has started the grievance process. Some guys are already being "harmed" from the last bid in 2014. I am opposite of your situation and the company will train 757C junior to me for differences training 767C and make me wait on initial for the 767C. They want it both ways and don't want to pay passover either way.
Eric in contract enforcement helped write the grievance and envisions us cleaning up outstanding grievances including this one soon.

Simply doesn't matter what training is involved

It's a junior guy in the specific domicile/aircraft/seat you bid and were awarded

Please post what you learn from the union

I anticipate a huge bid to "realign" everything. Then you will get to bid for training. That should eliminate all of the passover questions. But then again that isn't a popular opinion, or at least 57% feel otherwise.

The new bidding doesn't take affect until 2017. We should have several traditional bids before we start the new bidding.

It will not matter. We have already decided in past precedence not to grieve this issue. You must have a junior pilot activate prior to you off the same bid or later bid and the same course.

All the nugget guys came back to MEM prior to other guys who had MD11 MEM bids from off the same bid. The union said that in order to get passover, the training had to be the same. So, past precedent.

Well, we're trying again. You really have to pull for the underdog. It's the American way.
I mean the Cubs are due. Right? oh wait, bad example

Yeah but this one is more clear-cut than the ANC stuff.

New-hires are being trained and checked out in seats at this company, while guys hired before them wait for training dates.

A guy who is right now in the 757 right seat, with a training date for the right seat of the 767 of Jan 2017 sees a new hire trained into the right seat of the 767 check out in October of this year.

The company says "Sorry, no passover since all YOU have to go through is a differences course."

Horse-hockey, I say. A new-hire is in a seat that a senior guy bid - the senior guy should get paid for it.

But the company position now is is FU - grieve it.

Expect this nonsense to increase as we get more fleet familiarity. Everything will become a "differences course" and no one will ever trigger passover.

Are you referring to training after an "excess bid" or a "vacancy bid"?

Are you referring to guys "coming back" to the exact same seat --- i.e. Not 727 FO vs 727 SO

Please elaborate

I know there was some issues there when the Purple Nuggets were excessed back to MEM, but that situation is not identical

This should be grieved vigorously

Thanks to all who have provided info. Pilot141 sums it up perfectly. I count 46 new hires on the MEM 767 training letter so far for next year. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what training course someone is going through...the company needs 46 MEM 767 FOs that it is choosing to fill with new hires. Although they are going through a different course, that does delay my training because the company could have turned those initial training courses into at least the same number (and possibly more) differences courses.

Nobody is being fooled here. It is all about money. The company gets needed 767 FOs and only has to pay them first year pay while keeping more senior pilots on NB pay.

Several guys have indicated this is already be grieved so I don't know what else to do about it at this point.

The fact that the differences course is a PowerPoint slide show and two rides and the new hires have to go through the same course after their 75 IOE also is a strike against the company's position. Additionally some of us initial cadre 76 pilots started WB pay before the differences course.

As far as not knowing what to do, talk to CE. At least you know where you stand.

I question whether the people in the CE office are working for the union or the company.

I was bumped from a class so the company could train an instructor. I was not told about the bump until the day class was supposed to start.

That instructor was 10 years junior to me, yet he got my training slot, which forced me to start the following week, allowing another junior guy (in the new week class) to activate before me. I went to CE requesting passover pay, and they said, you don't get it. Company says I don't get it.

Recap: The company bumped me from a class for a person way junior to me. This resulted in a second person, who was in my exact seat, activating before me. I believe I should get passover pay, but the company does not, and CE won't fight for it for me.

I am going to the union office this week to grieve it.

Why bother having a contract if the union won't fight to protect it?

Don't they have to give you more notification of a training date change than the day the class was supposed to start? Can't see any justification for no passover pay.

Please, Please call your block rep and let him know how important this is to you. If our association throws us under the bus for this, then they really are out of touch.

If you think about it the company has always based an increase in pay on activation --- and the start of Passover pay on the date a junior guy activates

Nothing to due with the start date or length of a specific training course

This should be straight forward -- if the company chooses to activate a more junior guy that's their choice --- however, Passover pay is clearly due!

While I agree with you, with the 76 it is even more clear. What differentiates a FDX 76 pilot from a FDX 75 Pilot is a power point brief and up to 4 Supervised Line Flights. Everyone must get this same "course". There is no reason other then company trying to cheat us for a new hire to get the differences course before a 75 FO already on the 76 training letter.

No this was back just prior to the last contract. We had a large bid and there were many MD11 training slots awarded to MEM. However, since the ANC guys did not require upgrade training to activate into MEM, there were just activated as needed and anyone that needed upgrade training to activate was just delayed and delayed. I slid a year as every month a new nugget moved south. The company was using all the MD11 training slots to train the new ANC FOs so they could flush the nuggets. No passover awarded, even though all the "new" MD11 FOs were way junior and awarded the 11 seniority slots on the same bid. Since it was different type of training, the union said "all is good". So no passover, and past practice of allowing differing training to differentiate for passover.

Sorry, still confused

The ANC guys moving south --- that was voluntary or via an excess bid?

Those must have been MD11 guys coming to MEM so it's not their training that you were concerned about

I think you are talking about new hires off the street going to ANC as MD11 FOs...??

Was your MD11 slot to MEM or ANC??

If it wasn't to ANC, and that's where the new hires are going, then it's not the same plane/seat/DOMICILE

If all three were the same then Passover would be do

I think the current situation being described is different...and it's a new argument the company is making...guite disingenuously

CBA 24.D.2.a says:

Passover Pay Due To Junior Pilot’s Early Activation
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/a. In case of a junior pilot’s activation to a higher paying position out of seniority order, every senior pilot who meets the following prerequisites shall be paid as if he had activated in that higher paying position (passover pay):

1.  
   1. the junior pilot and the senior pilot(s) hold an award for the same crew position; and
   2. the junior pilot’s award is from the same posting as the senior pilot’s award or from a subsequent posting; and
   3. the Company chooses to activate the junior pilot prior to the senior pilot(s) and the junior pilot’s activation delays the training and activation of the senior pilot(s).

Obviously the rub is over the very last phrase (isn't it always?). The Company holds that if you are doing different training (e.g. ITU vs Differences), then by definition your training hasn't been delayed. The presumptive ALPA position is that since 767 ITU is simply 757 ITU followed by differences training, the senior pilot has in fact been delayed. I actually think we might win this one!

Additionally, CBA 24.D.2.a.iii doesn't say anything about what specific "course" someone is in. All it says is if a junior pilot's training/activation delays my training/activation, passover pay is due.

The only reason new hires are going to the MEM 767 starting in Jan of 2016 is to fill requirements. Let's just say that we had no new hires because they were all going to Delta. Who would now fill those requirements? Those of us on the training letter. So, the only reason I have a 2017 training date/activation is because new hires are filling requirements in 2016. The fact that the new hires will complete 757 initial training and IOE, followed by the SAME 767 differences training that I will have to complete, just makes this more insane.

These new hires should attend their scheduled 757 training and be activated into the 757. The 767 differences portion of their training should be given to guys on the 767 training letter. If the company chooses to leave it as is, that is their right but passover pay should be paid.

That was my point. New hires and current 75 pilots both need the same "course" 76, difference training, to be activated in the 76. New hires can continue flying 75s, no reason to schedule them for differences training before a "senior" pilot.

...Bingo!!