What happens after a 'NO' vote.....
09-17-2015, 12:00 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B777 FO FDX, C130 ANG
Posts: 538
The Block 7 rep. is a good dude; he only has our best interests at mind I can assure you. He's taken the emotion out of his decision and it's a yes for multiple reasons.
Anyone who says they know what will happen after a "no vote" is kidding themselves. No one knows... The only thing we know is what will happen if we vote "yes".
Ask yourselves if you are ok rolling the dice for an extra little $$ at the craps table or walking out with the nice winning's you already made because that's what it is a gamble. I had a buddy tell me he was a no vote because the raise didn't keep up with inflation (he couldn't tell me what the pay raise was). Everyone has their own vote to make, I hope we make it with the facts at hand, not emotion, and certainly not because "I heard from X pilot..."
That's what it is, a gamble. I doubt we would have a contract before peak at this point with a no vote, but you never know. What is the likelihood the company will blink and run back to the table vs. waiting another year and reopening every section of the contract again looking for more on their end? The fact is, this contract is worth $1.67 Billion dollars in gains to our end of the table. The company had to go back to the big boss multiple times for more money. A WBCA crediting 1000 (average is 1200) hours will make an additional $362,000 dollars over 6 years, WBFO $271,000 staying in their seat.
The line in the sand is the A plan because they froze/bought it away from 300,000 other employees at this company. The cost to increase it flirted in the realm of $4 in concessions for every $1 in A plan. They are willing to pay us in other ways on the front end to the tune of $150,000 additional dollars for those who can make themselves qualify (that's 15 years of an extra $20k base to the A-plan) and you get it right away.
Let's make an educated business decision at the very least; if that's a no then so be it we will re-attack collectively but some pilots have a hard time taking the emotion out of business decisions, and they will probably never be pleased with any contract that get's TA'd because it's never going to be perfect.
Anyone who says they know what will happen after a "no vote" is kidding themselves. No one knows... The only thing we know is what will happen if we vote "yes".
Ask yourselves if you are ok rolling the dice for an extra little $$ at the craps table or walking out with the nice winning's you already made because that's what it is a gamble. I had a buddy tell me he was a no vote because the raise didn't keep up with inflation (he couldn't tell me what the pay raise was). Everyone has their own vote to make, I hope we make it with the facts at hand, not emotion, and certainly not because "I heard from X pilot..."
That's what it is, a gamble. I doubt we would have a contract before peak at this point with a no vote, but you never know. What is the likelihood the company will blink and run back to the table vs. waiting another year and reopening every section of the contract again looking for more on their end? The fact is, this contract is worth $1.67 Billion dollars in gains to our end of the table. The company had to go back to the big boss multiple times for more money. A WBCA crediting 1000 (average is 1200) hours will make an additional $362,000 dollars over 6 years, WBFO $271,000 staying in their seat.
The line in the sand is the A plan because they froze/bought it away from 300,000 other employees at this company. The cost to increase it flirted in the realm of $4 in concessions for every $1 in A plan. They are willing to pay us in other ways on the front end to the tune of $150,000 additional dollars for those who can make themselves qualify (that's 15 years of an extra $20k base to the A-plan) and you get it right away.
Let's make an educated business decision at the very least; if that's a no then so be it we will re-attack collectively but some pilots have a hard time taking the emotion out of business decisions, and they will probably never be pleased with any contract that get's TA'd because it's never going to be perfect.
09-17-2015, 12:00 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 99
Another factor that was mentioned is that the union is running low on money and prolonged negotiations would take a toll on the unions bank account.
Well maybe they should not have mailed out a 600 page document that was not acceptable.
Well maybe they should not have mailed out a 600 page document that was not acceptable.
09-17-2015, 12:10 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,187
Originally Posted by Vito
I see Rock ( FedEx pilot on another thread) thinks Fred won't buy it, and has little hope in an improved package.......what is it about Fred that scares so many of you guys...he seems to value you guys and works with you most of the time...just curious. .
09-17-2015, 12:32 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by jetstar1
Another factor that was mentioned is that the union is running low on money and prolonged negotiations would take a toll on the unions bank account.
Well maybe they should not have mailed out a 600 page document that was not acceptable.
Well maybe they should not have mailed out a 600 page document that was not acceptable.
09-17-2015, 12:36 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by Flaps50
The Block 7 rep. is a good dude; he only has our best interests at mind I can assure you. He's taken the emotion out of his decision and it's a yes for multiple reasons.
Anyone who says they know what will happen after a "no vote" is kidding themselves. No one knows... The only thing we know is what will happen if we vote "yes".
Ask yourselves if you are ok rolling the dice for an extra little $$ at the craps table or walking out with the nice winning's you already made because that's what it is a gamble. I had a buddy tell me he was a no vote because the raise didn't keep up with inflation (he couldn't tell me what the pay raise was). Everyone has their own vote to make, I hope we make it with the facts at hand, not emotion, and certainly not because "I heard from X pilot..."
That's what it is, a gamble. I doubt we would have a contract before peak at this point with a no vote, but you never know. What is the likelihood the company will blink and run back to the table vs. waiting another year and reopening every section of the contract again looking for more on their end? The fact is, this contract is worth $1.67 Billion dollars in gains to our end of the table. The company had to go back to the big boss multiple times for more money. A WBCA crediting 1000 (average is 1200) hours will make an additional $362,000 dollars over 6 years, WBFO $271,000 staying in their seat.
The line in the sand is the A plan because they froze/bought it away from 300,000 other employees at this company. The cost to increase it flirted in the realm of $4 in concessions for every $1 in A plan. They are willing to pay us in other ways on the front end to the tune of $150,000 additional dollars for those who can make themselves qualify (that's 15 years of an extra $20k base to the A-plan) and you get it right away.
Let's make an educated business decision at the very least; if that's a no then so be it we will re-attack collectively but some pilots have a hard time taking the emotion out of business decisions, and they will probably never be pleased with any contract that get's TA'd because it's never going to be perfect.
Anyone who says they know what will happen after a "no vote" is kidding themselves. No one knows... The only thing we know is what will happen if we vote "yes".
Ask yourselves if you are ok rolling the dice for an extra little $$ at the craps table or walking out with the nice winning's you already made because that's what it is a gamble. I had a buddy tell me he was a no vote because the raise didn't keep up with inflation (he couldn't tell me what the pay raise was). Everyone has their own vote to make, I hope we make it with the facts at hand, not emotion, and certainly not because "I heard from X pilot..."
That's what it is, a gamble. I doubt we would have a contract before peak at this point with a no vote, but you never know. What is the likelihood the company will blink and run back to the table vs. waiting another year and reopening every section of the contract again looking for more on their end? The fact is, this contract is worth $1.67 Billion dollars in gains to our end of the table. The company had to go back to the big boss multiple times for more money. A WBCA crediting 1000 (average is 1200) hours will make an additional $362,000 dollars over 6 years, WBFO $271,000 staying in their seat.
The line in the sand is the A plan because they froze/bought it away from 300,000 other employees at this company. The cost to increase it flirted in the realm of $4 in concessions for every $1 in A plan. They are willing to pay us in other ways on the front end to the tune of $150,000 additional dollars for those who can make themselves qualify (that's 15 years of an extra $20k base to the A-plan) and you get it right away.
Let's make an educated business decision at the very least; if that's a no then so be it we will re-attack collectively but some pilots have a hard time taking the emotion out of business decisions, and they will probably never be pleased with any contract that get's TA'd because it's never going to be perfect.
I have no idea of the path forward when we say no. But, I'm willing to trust in CD to lead us to a plan. I don't want to lock in these QOL concessions. The fear of the unknown when we vote NO isn't a valid reason to vote yes.
09-17-2015, 12:40 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 767 CA
Posts: 1,876
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
I know they could have saved a few bucks by AT LEAST letting those of us who are comfortable operating in the 21st century to opt out of getting a paper copy of this POS.
To print and ship 4500 copies of a TA most have cost a pretty penny.
09-17-2015, 01:15 PM
#17
Contract 2021
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 777 - Both
Posts: 438
Originally Posted by Flaps50
The Block 7 rep. is a good dude; he only has our best interests at mind I can assure you. He's taken the emotion out of his decision and it's a yes for multiple reasons.
Anyone who says they know what will happen after a "no vote" is kidding themselves. No one knows... The only thing we know is what will happen if we vote "yes".
Anyone who says they know what will happen after a "no vote" is kidding themselves. No one knows... The only thing we know is what will happen if we vote "yes".
Well said Flaps...he is a good guy and I can tell after speaking with him really put his head and heart into his decision. Too bad the NO voters want to hang him out to dry.
You bring up some great points to consider and the realm of possibilities is pretty large if the TA fails. What bothers me is some folks putting out information that says we could have another TA rolling in anywhere from a few months to a year!!! WOW. Optimistic IMHO.
Why do folks assume that the Company would bring more money back to the table in a second round of bargaining? Do you think they will reward what they view as a bad decision by the pilots. They have folks they answer to as well, including share holders, the other employee groups and the board of directors.
Also, we have a substantial sum in Retro pay now...134Million. If we drop kick this TA to the curb, my guess is the Company blames the new delay on us (not the contents of the TA). I believe they wouldn't bring one more cent in retro...no matter how long the delay is in getting another TA lined up. I hope I'm wrong, maybe they would do the right thing?
09-17-2015, 01:22 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: MD-11 Captain
Posts: 4,304
Originally Posted by Overnitefr8
Even the company has realized we don't need hard copies. We don't print bid backs anymore because we do it on line.
To print and ship 4500 copies (via Priority Mail) of a TA most have cost a pretty penny.
To print and ship 4500 copies (via Priority Mail) of a TA most have cost a pretty penny.
It seems to me that both the Company and the Union would have a mutual interest in getting copies (I'd still like a hard copy, please) of a MEDIATED TA to the membership.
We're in the overnight shipping business! Can't we find a way to deliver copies via (employee discount) COMPANY DELIVERY?
Would UPS be cheaper than PRIORITY MAIL?
09-17-2015, 02:58 PM
#19
Part Time Employee
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Dispersing Green House Gasses on a Global Basis
Posts: 1,918
Originally Posted by FDX1
.....Why do folks assume that the Company would bring more money back to the table in a second round of bargaining? Do you think they will reward what they view as a bad decision by the pilots. They have folks they answer to as well, including share holders, the other employee groups and the board of directors.
Originally Posted by FDX1
Also, we have a substantial sum in Retro pay now...134Million. If we drop kick this TA to the curb, my guess is the Company blames the new delay on us (not the contents of the TA). I believe they wouldn't bring one more cent in retro...no matter how long the delay is in getting another TA lined up. I hope I'm wrong, maybe they would do the right thing?
Does the Retro pay and the pay rate increases make up for what was lost in 4a2b and the productivity gains the company has gained through reinterpretation of our current CBA?
Does the current TA prevent any more reinterpretation of contract language the company may decide to exploit in the future or does it create more opportunities for them?
09-17-2015, 03:00 PM
#20
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Some
Posts: 57
Originally Posted by Raptor
The fear of the unknown when we vote NO isn't a valid reason to vote yes.
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