767 RFO trip ANC-ICN
#51
Of course. We've been doing it for years with an MD-11 or MD-10-30. 3-person crew, less than 12 hours block. If they got lucky they had an -11 crew rest bird, if not they had a futon (I mean a vinyl mat on the floor).
There are Fedex MD-11s airborne as I type this flying 8 to 12 block hours with 3 pilots and no rest facility. Why is this even a question?
Back in the days when we were operating DC-10s and B-727s, we operated under Subpart S -- Flight Time Limitations: Supplemental Operations.
§121.511 Flight time limitations: Flight engineers: airplanes.
So, here for ready reference, §§121.503 and 121.505:(a) In any operation in which one flight engineer is serving the flight time limitations in §§121.503 and 121.505 apply to that flight engineer.
§121.503 Flight time limitations: Pilots: airplanes.
and ...(a) A certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot to fly in an airplane for eight hours or less during any 24 consecutive hours without a rest period during those eight hours.
(b) Each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 16 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder.
and so on ...
(b) Each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 16 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder.
and so on ...
§121.505 Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.
Sooo ... the rules that apply to 2 pilots and a Flight Engineer are the same as those that apply to 2 pilots.(a) If a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall give him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. This rest period must be at least twice the number of hours flown since the preceding rest period, but not less than eight hours. The certificate holder conducting supplemental operations shall relieve that pilot of all duty with it during that rest period.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of two pilots may be on duty for more than 16 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of two pilots may be on duty for more than 16 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
Just for comparison, here's a peek at the rules that apply to three pilot crews:
§121.507 Flight time limitations: Three pilot crews: airplanes.
Notice the distinction between "aloft" and "flight deck duty". For a crew of 2 pilots and a Flight Engineer, they're the same thing -- every minute aloft is a minute of flight deck duty. For a crew of three pilots where only two are required, only 2 can be on flight deck duty at a time -- the other one is just aloft, and NOT on flight deck duty.(a) No certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot—
(1) For flight deck duty in an airplane that has a crew of three pilots for more than eight hours in any 24 consecutive hours; or
(2) To be aloft in an airplane that has a crew of three pilot for more than 12 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) No pilot of an airplane that has a crew of three pilots may be on duty for more than 18 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.(2) To be aloft in an airplane that has a crew of three pilot for more than 12 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.
A crew of 2 pilots, or a crew of 2 pilots and a Flight Engineer, can exceed 8 hours of flight if they are then given the required rest. A pilot on a three pilot crew cannot be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flight deck duty -- no "except" clause.
So, an RFO is not like a Flight Engineer.
So, now we usually operate under Subpart R—Flight Time Limitations: Flag Operations. How do they differ?
§121.493 Flight time limitations: Flight engineers and flight navigators.
so ...(a) In any operation in which one flight engineer or flight navigator is required, the flight time limitations in §121.483 apply to that flight engineer or flight navigator.
§121.483 Flight time limitations: Two pilots and one additional flight crewmember.
Flag rules treat the Flight Engineer the same as "one additional flight crewmember." However, Flag rules didn't apply to those "back in the day" comparisons you made to B-727 Flight Engineers at FedEx. Exceeding 8-in-24 resulted in required rest.(a) No certificate holder conducting flag operations may schedule a pilot to fly, in an airplane that has a crew of two pilots and at least one additional flight crewmember, for a total of more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
... and so on.
... and so on.
Back to the original thought of the thread, being aloft in excess of 8 hours without "crew rest facilities." You are correct that "facilities" are not required. However, no pilot can be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flight deck duty. How can a pilot be free from flight deck duty when he cannot even leave the flight deck?
.
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Thanks for clearing that up, so let's recap, over 8 requires an engineer or an RFO (the tricky part, is the RFO a crew member?).
It wasn't me that brought up the old school rules but I did add the 727 to point out the over 8 does not have to be on the same leg, it can be multiple legs. So this discussion does apply to the 75.
It wasn't me that brought up the old school rules but I did add the 727 to point out the over 8 does not have to be on the same leg, it can be multiple legs. So this discussion does apply to the 75.
Last edited by FDXLAG; 10-18-2015 at 04:28 PM.
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
Slide/rafts are heavy (don't forget Management's Fuel Sense bonuses!) and require periodic scheduled maintenance. Former experience at another airline suggested that Inertial Reels from the 747 upper deck were fine for land evacuation.
Surely the 767 would be required to have rafts (not slides) for overwaters operations?
Surely the 767 would be required to have rafts (not slides) for overwaters operations?
#54
...our former MEC chair, the training block rep, and another senior block rep all bid the 777 before a pay rate was ever published. It has not been our pilot groups history to have much effect on aircraft configurations, payrates, or purchases in the past.....When our own management will not refer to us a pilot "union" but rather "the association" you understand they do not seek input from us unless its practically under duress.
Your point is well taken--leadership action articulates unity of effort. The facts speak for themselves, and the company does not view legitimacy in an association led by disparate individuals. Having a seat at a table for a crew rest facility discussion appears too lofty for this budding association, as apparently is a suitable TA truly reflective of the high level of effort that I see our pilot force continuously achieve.
#55
From FC MM at the meeting yesterday in HKG. Crew rest can was approved by the FAA but no timeline for development or installation? Coffee and oven are being looked at. Funny the oven was actually TAKEN OUT at KPAE? Flights will be Pt. 121 revenue flights to move 767's back stateside due to tax requirements. CPDLC hopefully soon? Sat com alternative being explored?
Seems like they should have thought of ALL this BEFORE sending the airplane to HKG?????????
Seems like they should have thought of ALL this BEFORE sending the airplane to HKG?????????
#57
Scoff....... Satcom? What could they possibly need that for between CAN and DEL? I'm sure those helpful folks in Myanmar will be happy to patch them through to GOC - easy peasy.
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