A300 vs. B757
 

I received a CJO from my interview last week. I'm moving to within 30 min of BWI (which also means 1 HR to PHL and IAD). Based on the way I understand class seniority, a last 4 starting with 9 would be most senior; mine starts with 3. From what I hear, the last few aircraft left to choose from is either the A300 or the B757.

I looked at this months A300 and B757 bid pack. The A300 has lots of BWI turns, D/Hs, and overnights; the B757 has no BWI flying.

All things being equal, and everything subject to change, would you go for a possible faster time to hold a line on the B757 or go for trying to pickup trips where I could sleep in my bed at BWI on the A300?

Thanks for any input.

CJO from my FedEx interview that is.

The great thing about FedEx is there's something for everyone! The caveat is, that only applies if you are senior enough to hold it!
I personally would rather get a line sooner and deal with a known quantity. Reserve is a crap shoot, you may or may not get trips to destinations you desire and if you don't you've just given up control of your life and gained very little. (I'm talking 1st year pay).

We are about to have a huge system bid (likely this month or next) which will realign staffing in all fleets.

As a wise Captain told me a long time ago, you only have to be junior
here one time. I'd go with the junior airplane as a new hire.Movement is going to be rapid for the next decade at least, so get on the property, lay low until the system bid after you're hired and then choose a seat you'd be comfortable with for a while.

That's my 2 cents.
Good luck to you and welcome aboard.

Odds are pretty good there are a couple of bus F/Os sitting on those BWI lines. But you never know, I held my home town after a couple of months last time we were hiring 30 a month. I would tell my favorite nephew if he got hired here or anywhere else, but particularly here; get senior sooner.

First, the guys holding BWI and IAD are at about 12-15 years of seniority. There are no lines of PHL. One guy hired a few years ago got a week of IAD layovers in March, but I doubt he gets that consistently. So, there would have to be some other reasons for you to bid the A300 than just an occasional week or sporadic open time score that gets you a layover or three close to home now and then. By the time (loooong time) you might be able to hold those cities consistently, you'll be able to bid off the 757. So, those two decisions don't really even relate to each other.

If you want the quickest QOL bump, 757 is definitely the way to go. If you need to plus up the paycheck, an extra convenient couple of days work here and there out of open time will put you at parity with A300 reserve pay.

A little reality about home layovers (I understand some can make it work - but I think if they were honest, it's not always as good as it sounds on paper). When I was night hub turning, I ended up on the occasional crew with a pilot who lived at the layover city. Some guys sat on those cities for years past when it might have made sense from a purely financial viewpoint, to bid off the aircraft. So, I get the draw of doing that in theory.

I always thought to myself - wow, you must have a seriously special bed to be willing to use up 1-2 hours of your 12-14 hour layover to drive both ways to sleep in it. Life is going on at most family households while you're away on a trip. From my experience, trying to tip-toe past everyone on your way to bed without getting pulled into whatever is going on doesn't always work.

Going east is tough as it is, because it's typical to catch the sunrise as you hit top of descent. Watching the sun come up driving home, smelling the coffee as you walk in, catching up on the family biz and then trying to go sleep for the day doesn't always work for some guys. There’s nothing worse than having something wake you up 3 hours after you lay down and realizing that’s going to be it until you try to nap in a recliner on the turn in about 14 hours.

If you can sleep from 0700-1400/1500 (or later) consistently while you're hub turning, this job can work pretty well. I did it like that and felt great for most weeks. I got so good at it, that I didn't try to nap on the turns. If I had, it would have screwed up my day sleep. I was able to do that by hitting the hotel room before sunrise, blacking it out, minimizing distractions, no TV, using earplugs, etc. When I tried going home (45 min drive), I never got anything close to the same restful sleep I did in the hotel. I paid dearly for it as the week progressed and my sleep deficit built.

Frankly speaking, no one in the family is going to want to interact with most guys anyway by day-3 if they're sacrificing rest to be home with them. So, what's the point?

Anyway - probably more info than you really wanted. I put the stuff you asked about at the beginning in case you're not reading by now. :D

I knew one captain on the 727 that pulled it off.... he built a special room in the basement of his house. No windows, lots of insulation. He bid a pure line to somewhere up in the northeast.

I'm the opposite. There were plenty of nights coming off a long trip that I could have made it home by 4-5 am and I ended up getting a motel room instead. If you have kids, there is no way you're going to sleep good at home unless they are out of the house.

Great advice all, I appreciate the responses.


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One other factor you may want to consider. The 75 pays approx 20-25k/year less for doing the exact same thing as the Bus starting with year 2... That's a lot of lost income over a career...

But it's a Boeing. That alone should be worth something.

:confused: No one's suggesting the 75 choice is a career long decision. It's a way gain control of the schedule sooner and get off reserve.

Let's not sugar coat it - the reserve system at FedEx sucks. If you've never experienced anything else, you may not know any better. Someone coming from a system with trip pick-up options, long call, trip bypass and other industry standard practices is going to be in for a rude awakening.

If you're going to move to MEM, bid a WB and deal with reserve. It's manageable for a local guy. If you're commuting and can get off reserve in a few months by bidding 757, that's the way to go. In a few years, when you can hold a line - then you bid the Bus or whatever and start getting the WB pay as a line holder. You go straight to the Bus and though your hourly rate is higher, reserve pay hours are lower and you're spending some of that extra pay on a crash pad and domicile car you probably won't need on the 757.

If you want to try to plus up the yearly earnings, you work two of the 15 days off you have as a 757 line holder and make the same as the guy on A300 reserve with 13 days off. Or, another month you don't - flexibility is a wonderful thing.

757 new hires could decide to go any direction after being with the company a while. They've done the domestic hub turn thing - if they want that at WB pay, they go to the Bus, 767 or even MD-11. International, commute to ANC or bid the 777. If a guy goes straight to the Bus, he's kind of stuck there. Not everyone is going to be willing to do a complete transition course for a lateral move WB F/O to WB F/O just to leave the Bus and fly international. Some might, but a lot of guys will stay put until they can hold a left seat. So, it seems like a new hire going to the 757 keeps a little more flexibility for sensible training opportunities for future flying options.

Another reason to go 757 would be the easy transition to the 767 when the time came to jump to a WB. I think if I was thinking long term, I'd go 767 vs A300 when I wanted WB pay. Transition from 757 would be quicker and easier, the flying in the domestic fleets is basically the same and the 767 fleet is going to continue to grow.

We do not have PBS, we have 2.5 pay rates, a currently inflexible scheduling system, and the majority of our flying is "red eye". Consequently, IMHO, our senior lines are better than anyone else's and our junior lines are significantly worse than anyone else's. Particularly from a commuters point of view. If you aren't going to live in Memphis and you want to be a FDX pilot for decent money and a decent quality of life go for seat seniority.

How come your 767s don't have winglets? Are you going to get them?

A few of them do, non of the new builds do yet. I was told by the SCP that we will likely retrofit them at some point. There is an STC for the winglets and most of them are installed by Delta. We will likely wait until we can get them for pennies on the dollar and have them installed then, there is also a ramp space issue for us in Memphis, the winglets make the footprint quit a bit larger than the non winglet jet.

Main factor though is that we fly at night primarily so looking cool doesn't matter. :D

Thanks. I think that UPS has them on all their 767s. Any plans to put them on your 757s?

Congrats on the CJO. I was in the same position as you just a few months ago. If given the choice I was going to bid for the 757, but with a SSN last 4 starting with a 3 also, I was assigned the 300. Since I was assigned and not given a choice, was told that during the next bid I could bid what I want without any seat lock if I wanted to lateral or move down. (At least this is what I think I heard). I plan to just stay put for a few reasons. First I have no desire to go through the schoolhouse twice during my first year. Also looking at the 300 bid pack and the reserve lines this month...With the new class that just started I almost have enough below that I may be able to hold a line by summer. A crappy line, but a line. Movement looks like it will be fast. Of course with the upcoming bid, it all could change.

Bottom line, it is good to think about seat assignment but you may not even have a choice.

Per our SVP, winglets are not in the cards. Our airframes don't fly near the amount of hours a passengers carrier flys. The break even point for cost is way too high to make the retrofit worth it. He gave a specific number of hours the plane had to fly to make it worth it, but I don't remember exactly what that figure was. (Much higher than you would think, something like 15 hours of block a day). On top of that they are already looking to replace the older 757 airframes, and it wouldn't make sense to put winglets on a plane that will be going to the desert soon anyway.

Many (most?) of the used 757's we purchased had winglets and we took them off. At many of our out-stations the 757s were going to have to park in the same 727 parking spots and there was concern about wing tip clearance ...


:confused:

You guys just bought them not too long ago. Why get rid of them? Which ones are you going to get rid of, the Pratt or RR?

Probably get rid of the really really really old ones and keep the really really old ones.

Heck man, now is the time to do it if you're going to do it. $4K a month training pay vs first year pay isn't that much of a loss. Plus, you're already in the schoolhouse frame of mind. At least that's my thoughts anyway.

[QUOTE=PostalAV8B;2082037] Also looking at the 300 bid pack and the reserve lines this month...With the new class that just started I almost have enough below that I may be able to hold a line by summer. A crappy line, but a line. Movement looks like it will be fast. Of course with the upcoming bid, it all could change.

[QUOTE]

Look, you probably know this, but all you need is a line. Trip trade your butt off, swap for the sick time, and you can make your line a whole lot better. I've seen extremely junior bus pilots end up with beautiful months, just because they were willing to do the work. Not worth it for some, but definitely for others.

And don't forget ... they're getting rid of all of the A300's three years ago!*?


:confused:

I would agree with Postal. I wouldn't want to play "you bet your job" any more often than I had to in my first year.

MG2

:rolleyes: A little dramatic, IMO.

When was the last time a competent professional hired by FedEx didn't make it through initial new hire training because they simply couldn't hack it? I'm not talking about the problem child from UPS with a bad attitude or some other person with undetected baggage or training issues. I'm talking a well qualified pilot with a solid work history coming out of the military, ACMI, corporate, an RJ or some other route here.

If someone struggles for some reason as a new hire and lacks the confidence to make it through another course, fine. Stay in the shallow end until you have the full protections of the CBA (and maybe do something to strengthen your skills). Don't they still have to pass recurrent a couple of time, though? Doesn't that carry as much jeopardy as the ride at the end of a transition course? I was going to mention line checks, but they're probably the ones who sick out of those. Thanks for the nice trip!! :D I guess it's good they know their own limitations (although weeding out a weak pilot before we HAVE to protect them might not be a bad idea.....but I digress).

To present avoidance of multiple training cycles in year one as a universal axiom that all should follow is misrepresenting reality. A good pilot who had no issues the first time around should not feel like they're "betting their job" if they train twice in their first year. Apply the same skill and effort to the next course and most likely similar results will follow. Have a bad day - bring it next time and move on. It's not a one mistake company and more than just one bad ride would have to occur before the extreme steps of showing them the door.

You mean you had a newhire come from UPS? He must have been one of their furloughs. Did he have a bad attitude? Did he make it through probation for did he get fired?

I think he was furloughed, but I'm not certain. From what I've heard, he had big attitude problems and shot himself in the foot multiple times before they showed him the door. No, he did not make it through probation. I don't think he even made it through new hire training.

Wow. What a bonehead. To get thrown a huge lifeline at FDX and screwing it up.

You sure about that? There's no STC to remove winglets - 757 or 767. The Silk Air 767 we bought that has winglets were added via STC but we're trying to figure out how to remove them as they have been cracking.

Yes, it's worth less.

Who really cares. We don't get paid more for winglets and the pilots aren't paying for the fuel. Others have posted the negatives with respect to footprint, cost and ROI.

Why are you seemingly obsessed with winglets of all things?

It's been my experience so far that, flying skills aside, if you put forth a little effort, the training department will make sure you make it through.

Totally false. All our 75s were sans winglets when purchased. One of the reasons we have stopped buying 75s, besides the less than stellar reliability of some of the older airframes, is that we have purchased almost every plane available, that has not been modded with winglets.

While there is an STC to add the winglets, there is currently no approved STC to remove them, as the mod makes extensive changes to the outer wing.

Each to their own, obviously. I'm just saying that if I was on probation one of my goals would be to stay below the radar as much as possible.

MG2