Deadhead and sub
01-02-2017, 05:51 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 360
Originally Posted by DLax85
Pineseeker -
When did this happen to you?
I've declined sub many times, and ALWAYS have retained the bank; thus, I support Kronans statement
HOWEVER, I'll admit I haven't done this under the new Nov 2015 CBA, so I wanted to see the reference again
The reference you just posted is from section 8.C.2.a
I cross checked this against the same paragraph in the Oct 2006 CBA
Indeed, the old verbiage "However, if a deadhead trip is changed or canceled by the company, the deadhead bank monies remain intact"
I believe this verbiage was the justification for past practice, and Kronans statement
It appears this section was reformatted in many ways
Someone Please, please tell me similar verbiage is now written somewhere else and we are afforded the same "bank protection" we've always enjoyed
Please don't tell me this is something we gave away during our last round of negotiations
When did this happen to you?
I've declined sub many times, and ALWAYS have retained the bank; thus, I support Kronans statement
HOWEVER, I'll admit I haven't done this under the new Nov 2015 CBA, so I wanted to see the reference again
The reference you just posted is from section 8.C.2.a
I cross checked this against the same paragraph in the Oct 2006 CBA
Indeed, the old verbiage "However, if a deadhead trip is changed or canceled by the company, the deadhead bank monies remain intact"
I believe this verbiage was the justification for past practice, and Kronans statement
It appears this section was reformatted in many ways
Someone Please, please tell me similar verbiage is now written somewhere else and we are afforded the same "bank protection" we've always enjoyed
Please don't tell me this is something we gave away during our last round of negotiations
DLax-
Use the search function, Luke...
Starting a search for "if a deadhead trip" (you don't even have to use the whole line you quoted) instantly turns up section 8.C.2.d, which includes that exact verbiage (still) in CBA 2015.
Phew. I was about to have another "damnit we got screwed" moment...
Cheers.
01-02-2017, 06:07 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: MD-11 Captain
Posts: 4,304
Originally Posted by Nightflyer
It seems like every time the language changes, it is to the benefit of the company.
We have ALPA (MEC and National) attorneys. It doesn't seem like we should need to hire our own? Would Management just settle (in exchange for them not having to admit they did anything wrong) out of Court to make us go away?
As unhappy as I am with how we get treated in general, I have to admit that I have been in more than one medical covered gray area situation that I was pleased that the Benefits folks ruled in my favor. I've had a rough couple of years medically (hundreds of thousands of dollars). It was nice not to have to worry about coverage. In my case they actually agreed that they hadn't given me reasonable notice to switch to other plans that I was eligible for and that they'd cover me until the next enrollment period. I really did appreciate it.
I wasn't the only one that was confused. After speaking with ALPA Benefits, they told me to call the Company Benefits and ask why? ALPA didn't understand either. It turned out that there was a reasonable explanation. How come neither ALPA or I knew anything about that?
I don't have any idea what will happen now with the new Healthcare Benefits? Now that ObamaCare is going away do we even need these new Cadillac Plan tax avoidance (fewer benefits/higher copay) plans. Can we go back to our old plan please?
I wish us all luck. Happy New Year everyone ...
.
01-02-2017, 06:45 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,433
Originally Posted by BlackKnight
DLax-
Use the search function, Luke...
Starting a search for "if a deadhead trip" (you don't even have to use the whole line you quoted) instantly turns up section 8.C.2.d, which includes that exact verbiage (still) in CBA 2015.
Phew. I was about to have another "damnit we got screwed" moment...
Cheers.
Use the search function, Luke...
Starting a search for "if a deadhead trip" (you don't even have to use the whole line you quoted) instantly turns up section 8.C.2.d, which includes that exact verbiage (still) in CBA 2015.
Phew. I was about to have another "damnit we got screwed" moment...
Cheers.
Back-End, and Mid-Trip. For the purpose of deviation bank credit,
each category shall be treated separately. However, if a deadhead
trip is changed or canceled by the Company, the associated deadhead
bank monies remain intact. Within each category, a pilot’s
bank credit shall be determined as set forth in Section 8.C.2.a.
01-02-2017, 08:06 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by BlackKnight
DLax-
Use the search function, Luke...
Starting a search for "if a deadhead trip" (you don't even have to use the whole line you quoted) instantly turns up section 8.C.2.d, which includes that exact verbiage (still) in CBA 2015.
Phew. I was about to have another "damnit we got screwed" moment...
Cheers.
Use the search function, Luke...
Starting a search for "if a deadhead trip" (you don't even have to use the whole line you quoted) instantly turns up section 8.C.2.d, which includes that exact verbiage (still) in CBA 2015.
Phew. I was about to have another "damnit we got screwed" moment...
Cheers.
(No IPAD around when I posted from my phone😂 --- just the small paper copy of new CBA)
01-02-2017, 08:20 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by pinseeker
Lax,
It has been several years, before contract 2015. I thought the same thing you did. I declined a sub trip and my bank for that trip went away. I called the company and contract enforcement. I was referred to the line I quoted above. It was in the 2011 as was the line you quoted. Both the company and contract enforcement told me that yes, you keep the bank for being put in sub, but if you decline sub, you have given up the trip. They equated it to dropping a trip, so you lose the bank.
That's my experience. YMMV.
It has been several years, before contract 2015. I thought the same thing you did. I declined a sub trip and my bank for that trip went away. I called the company and contract enforcement. I was referred to the line I quoted above. It was in the 2011 as was the line you quoted. Both the company and contract enforcement told me that yes, you keep the bank for being put in sub, but if you decline sub, you have given up the trip. They equated it to dropping a trip, so you lose the bank.
That's my experience. YMMV.
(Unfortunately, I've had that happen numerous times with Rose, and I'll actually ask to speak with someone else)
For the new guys, I believe the reasoning behind the verbiage which protects your bank if your trip is subbed, is because many commuters plan their deviation travel expenses on their total Travel Bank as awarded in the beginning of the month
A trip at the end of the month with a large bank may be used to cover expenses earlier in the month
Thus, if the company choses to revise a trip to the extent it generates substitution, the pilot is not disadvantaged/penalized
(i.e. ...the pilot may have already spent a portion of the bank associated with the revised trip)
Additionally, turning down sub is also not suppose to disadvantage/penalize the pilot
You merely are giving up Trip Gauaruntee for OTP
OMSV - Our Milage Shouldn't Vary
IMO, We all need to "Press to Test" when we are given bad gouge with respect to clear past precedent --- especially if it comes from our own Contract Enforcement
01-02-2017, 09:25 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,820
Originally Posted by DLax85
I think you got very poor support from contract enforcement on your inquiry
(Unfortunately, I've had that happen numerous times with Rose, and I'll actually ask to speak with someone else)
For the new guys, I believe the reasoning behind the verbiage which protects your bank if your trip is subbed, is because many commuters plan their deviation travel expenses on their total Travel Bank as awarded in the beginning of the month
A trip at the end of the month with a large bank may be used to cover expenses earlier in the month
Thus, if the company choses to revise a trip to the extent it generates substitution, the pilot is not disadvantaged/penalized
(i.e. ...the pilot may have already spent a portion of the bank associated with the revised trip)
Additionally, turning down sub is also not suppose to disadvantage/penalize the pilot
You merely are giving up Trip Gauaruntee for OTP
OMSV - Our Milage Shouldn't Vary
IMO, We all need to "Press to Test" when we are given bad gouge with respect to clear past precedent --- especially if it comes from our own Contract Enforcement
(Unfortunately, I've had that happen numerous times with Rose, and I'll actually ask to speak with someone else)
For the new guys, I believe the reasoning behind the verbiage which protects your bank if your trip is subbed, is because many commuters plan their deviation travel expenses on their total Travel Bank as awarded in the beginning of the month
A trip at the end of the month with a large bank may be used to cover expenses earlier in the month
Thus, if the company choses to revise a trip to the extent it generates substitution, the pilot is not disadvantaged/penalized
(i.e. ...the pilot may have already spent a portion of the bank associated with the revised trip)
Additionally, turning down sub is also not suppose to disadvantage/penalize the pilot
You merely are giving up Trip Gauaruntee for OTP
OMSV - Our Milage Shouldn't Vary
IMO, We all need to "Press to Test" when we are given bad gouge with respect to clear past precedent --- especially if it comes from our own Contract Enforcement
Seriously, thanks.
01-02-2017, 02:43 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 360
Originally Posted by DLax85
Many thanks BlackNight
(No IPAD around when I posted from my phone
--- just the small paper copy of new CBA)
(No IPAD around when I posted from my phone
--- just the small paper copy of new CBA)No worries dude. I've read enough of your posts to know you're smart and resourceful. Glad I could help.
01-02-2017, 04:49 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
One way to lose bank is to accept the overage, rather than trip guarantee for next trip(s), when you're extended into a trip with a D/H.
By taking the overage, you are basically telling scheduling you don't want the D/H trip guarantee and to drop the D/H trip that your extension conflicted with.
By taking the overage, you are basically telling scheduling you don't want the D/H trip guarantee and to drop the D/H trip that your extension conflicted with.
