318 Tools at Flexjet Vote Union Out
05-31-2018, 08:39 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Originally Posted by Flytolive
Airline pilot compensation has doubled in the last five years and you characterize it as the Titanic sinking. Who is that guy talking to himself? Route66.
1. The Pay raises in 2017 (don't tell me it was because they HAD to or lose pilots to Delta/United, thats obvious. Our inferior LAA contract didn't include increased compensation tied to profits)
2. Profit sharing (you know, the stuff the APA didn't care about when they stabbed the LUS pilots in the back by going around us and negotiated their own INFERIOR contract that we still live up to today)
3. Last years $1000 bonus that the union DIDNT negotiate for.
The titanic is the sinking of the UNION mentality that they are the ones that got it for you when in reality the Companys are simply addressing supply and demand. I still get the inside APA info here.
Flexjet/Options pilots. You're smart. Don't let 1108 and these other guys try to dissuade your choice. You made it, live by it and make it work.....or not. Ricci, Parker and the others in management seem to be trying to make it work competitively. Only time will tell but what 1108 doesn't want you to do is succeed. The responses here from the union side hate you and don't want you to succeed.
If you don't like it leave for another carrier. Thats the way its always been.
05-31-2018, 08:55 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,788
Originally Posted by Route66
Let’s be clear, I do not believe that a career F/O is anyone’s aspiration and will be where attrition for any carrier less than a legacy will retain pilots. From my discussion with many of the pilots who voted against 1108 it was the loss of the LOS that was stripped from the, because of the arbitration. I’m not surprised at this. And here Again is the reason unions are losing their grips. Cross-group unity is sparce at best. Look, Ricci probably isn’t going to pay major salaries, there is no surprise. But you will see improvements over the year or then you can expect a union push next year. Even the airline union model here at the legacy American is weak because of poor contract language. Give the LEC rep here in Charlotte a call and ask hi, how bad the scheduling (rescheduling) provisions are over here. The Dallas LEC and Dallas President runs the show.
They were brought over specifically to influence the vote in this way. You’re about to find the majority of the original FJ pilot group completely screwed by the seniority list as envisioned by Ken Ricci. Not that seniority means much to him anyway.
You have a very interesting notion that the only people who want unions are left leaning individuals. Quite the contrary, a goodly number of those in union positions at Flex are staunch conservatives. Some even run blogs with that express tilt. But they also realize that aviation management groups would happily run min rest/max duty, no QOL, no schedule, underpaid sweatshops if guve their druthers. In fact, that’s exactly where Flex is headed. It’s the Ricci way and he’s very consistent.
05-31-2018, 09:06 AM
#35
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by Route66
But you will see improvements over the year or then you can expect a union push next year.
Last edited by Propilot77; 05-31-2018 at 09:34 AM.
05-31-2018, 09:12 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Originally Posted by FNGFO
I’m assuming by LOS you mean longevity of service. If that’s the case then yes, the decerters lost it when they transferred to FJ, and jumped seniority to take the large metal positions in exchange for wearing Ken a Ricci knee pads.
They were brought over specifically to influence the vote in this way. You’re about to find the majority of the original FJ pilot group completely screwed by the seniority list as envisioned by Ken Ricci. Not that seniority means much to him anyway.
You have a very interesting notion that the only people who want unions are left leaning individuals. Quite the contrary, a goodly number of those in union positions at Flex are staunch conservatives. Some even run blogs with that express tilt. But they also realize that aviation management groups would happily run min rest/max duty, no QOL, no schedule, underpaid sweatshops if guve their druthers. In fact, that’s exactly where Flex is headed. It’s the Ricci way and he’s very consistent.
They were brought over specifically to influence the vote in this way. You’re about to find the majority of the original FJ pilot group completely screwed by the seniority list as envisioned by Ken Ricci. Not that seniority means much to him anyway.
You have a very interesting notion that the only people who want unions are left leaning individuals. Quite the contrary, a goodly number of those in union positions at Flex are staunch conservatives. Some even run blogs with that express tilt. But they also realize that aviation management groups would happily run min rest/max duty, no QOL, no schedule, underpaid sweatshops if guve their druthers. In fact, that’s exactly where Flex is headed. It’s the Ricci way and he’s very consistent.
As far as the seniority issue goes, my understanding that Options pilots were asked to go over to FJ to help with their shortage and Ricci promised them they wouldn't lose their Options seniority. When the arbitrator shoved it back down Ricci/transfer pilots throats thats when the screws came out for 1108.
I think 1108 could've handled it better, but they didn't and history is made. My point here is not whether I'm wrong/you're right gets batted back and forth like a shuttlecock but whether the "union" industry can right an increasingly sinking union ship.
I've come on here trying to show that the courts are increasingly finding fault against the unions, arbitrations are a "King Solomon" solution that continues to split the baby and as a profession WE need to form a NATIONAL solution where career paths in this industry give all pilots the security and compensation they truly deserve while eliminating parochial interests.
I can dream.
05-31-2018, 09:16 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Originally Posted by Propilot77
And in what universe do you ever think ANY union will want to represent you guys after a decert? That shipped has sailed! ALPA hell no, Teamsters again hell no, NJASAP hell no, in house union, nope you guys can’t afford the assessment,The Phildo donkey show....good chance but I think SAG would be your best bet since you guys are going to get bent over the casting couch by the Harry Weinstein of aviation!
They'll be back. Mark my words. What universe? How about EARTH.
Back to realville.
05-31-2018, 09:31 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 321
Originally Posted by Route66
Flytolive is a liberal left wing antifa scumbag who doesn’t believe pilots can make intelligent decisions for themselves. Flytolive has to call people names, threaten people with violence, has a low IQ and his only repartee is to demean anyone who doesn’t march to his low standards of Aviation. He and those like him are the reasons 1108 lost. Think about it. It’s happening at the major airlines too.
Pay NO attention to the “Flytolive” behind the curtain.
There. Doesn’t that kind of diatribe make you “pro-union”liberals feel better and accomplished now? As your titanic is sinking around you dont you think it’s time to think that maybe you’re looking at the way labor is doing business is DOING IT WRONG or are new and better ways available to accomplish our professions goals?
I just don’t believe pilots will gain. History repeats itself with us, we always attack and demean others instead of trying to fix what’s wrong. Sounds like the democrat party.
Pay NO attention to the “Flytolive” behind the curtain.
There. Doesn’t that kind of diatribe make you “pro-union”liberals feel better and accomplished now? As your titanic is sinking around you dont you think it’s time to think that maybe you’re looking at the way labor is doing business is DOING IT WRONG or are new and better ways available to accomplish our professions goals?
I just don’t believe pilots will gain. History repeats itself with us, we always attack and demean others instead of trying to fix what’s wrong. Sounds like the democrat party.
How long until you retire? I'm sure Flexjet will welcome a union hater like you with open arms. You can work 12 months to make what your ex colleagues at AA will be making in 2 months.
05-31-2018, 09:58 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,788
Originally Posted by Route66
FWIW we have the same problems here at American that you do at FJ. You'd be surprised at how many guys tell me their contract at ______ was way better than ours. Its just that our management coats it with enough "sugar" to make it go down easier.
As far as the seniority issue goes, my understanding that Options pilots were asked to go over to FJ to help with their shortage and Ricci promised them they wouldn't lose their Options seniority. When the arbitrator shoved it back down Ricci/transfer pilots throats thats when the screws came out for 1108.
I think 1108 could've handled it better, but they didn't and history is made. My point here is not whether I'm wrong/you're right gets batted back and forth like a shuttlecock but whether the "union" industry can right an increasingly sinking union ship.
I've come on here trying to show that the courts are increasingly finding fault against the unions, arbitrations are a "King Solomon" solution that continues to split the baby and as a profession WE need to form a NATIONAL solution where career paths in this industry give all pilots the security and compensation they truly deserve while eliminating parochial interests.
I can dream.
As far as the seniority issue goes, my understanding that Options pilots were asked to go over to FJ to help with their shortage and Ricci promised them they wouldn't lose their Options seniority. When the arbitrator shoved it back down Ricci/transfer pilots throats thats when the screws came out for 1108.
I think 1108 could've handled it better, but they didn't and history is made. My point here is not whether I'm wrong/you're right gets batted back and forth like a shuttlecock but whether the "union" industry can right an increasingly sinking union ship.
I've come on here trying to show that the courts are increasingly finding fault against the unions, arbitrations are a "King Solomon" solution that continues to split the baby and as a profession WE need to form a NATIONAL solution where career paths in this industry give all pilots the security and compensation they truly deserve while eliminating parochial interests.
I can dream.
Your understanding of the Flops transfer situation is wrong. Flexjet was forced to stop hiring, in fact numerous individuals were hung out to dry after being hired, and bring on any Flops transfers or furloughees. These transfers and furloughees were then able to hold positions at Flex well above what their Flops seniority would dictate, and in the case of the big metal leap frogged the FJ group as well. As a result, they were awarded the lowest seniority on the FJ list.
The arbitrator agreed with the union on this stance. The transfers weren’t screwed. They were used to screw the remainder of the pilot group, often willingly, in an attempt to rid OneSky of its union.
Further, the arbitrator expressly stated in his ruling that re lack of union support played a large role in his decisions. In other words, the fault for Flex’s average contract lies not with the union, but with roughly half the pilot group who couldn’t tell you even today what a single union proposal was for the contract. Such was the willful ignorance.
Over 20% of the pilot group has left. FJ can’t hire or retain. They’re non competitive with any major airline in any facet of compensation or quality of life. Their owner doesn’t believe there’s a pilot shortage, thinks his terrible schedules, rest rules, shoddy mx, laughable emphasis on training and backstabbing culture will attract candidates. No. It’s alreay clear he’s wrong. And that’s before folks interested in a job a Flex find out that he firmly believes in underpaying 80% of his employees and thinks seniority has no place in his model.
You can dream about fixing unions and chasing whatever the issue of the day is at AA. With regard to Flex you are woefully uninformed. I don’t blame you for that as an outsider, but should know how off base you positions are without first hand knowledge of FJ.
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