Flytolive

I told you all. From another thread.

He wants a personal windfall.

WiskeyTango

The company promised, through back channels, a 20% raise for first officers if the union was voted out. That didn’t happen. First officers are still paid much less than over at Netjets. In years 10+ its as much as 30% less than netjets. That’s just wrong considering the company has frequently put out press releases stating we are the highest paid pilots in the industry. It’s not true.

fooled2x

"Highest paid" on paper. The bonus system is designed so you don't get the bonus. The good trips are given to the FOK crews at the expense of the others. Kenn likes it because there is a race to kiss his ****. How can you make money when you are doing 1-2 hour trips in the large cabin?

metrodriver

Yes they do have 12 year FOs

Route66

It's not nor never was it about that. Unions are going have to change and pilots are going to have to come up with solutions where the differences between the different groups are somehow reconciled and standardized in ways that smooth the differences out between groups and make transitions more universal in nature.

You never understood that concept and the unionists from the seventies and eighties never adapted to the nature of airlines after deregulation and September 11.

Its not that I wouldn't pay dues to an organization that did such a thing but I'd be at the front helping to pave the way for the junior guys. But the way is litter with parochial interests from individuals who are just as bad as management. David Bates, Keith Wilson and now Dan Carey, all APA leaders who are about the few at the top and none for the junior.

Start with your name calling. Thats the only level you understand. You're not Dan Carey, are you? (Just a wannabe).

Route66

Well, here is what I DO know: 1108 lost. Rick Dubinsky was bad at United and he's worst at Teamsters. Again, what you describe, if true reveals that as long as pilots wish to remain uninformed then they will get what they negotiate. But lets not blame or throw stones at each other. Pilots are human and put their pants on the same way as the rest of the worlds population does.

It might be high time for the union movement to access there position in the world and maybe ask those that voted no to the union what solutions they would offer to help improve the situation. Would that be too much to ask?

FNGFO

You truly don’t understand. The solution of the decerters is to trust Ken Ricci. There is no overcoming this position. It’s indefensible based on his lengthy and consistent track record. Only a staunchly anti union group like Flex that never bothered to watch the industry around them would fall for his BS, and then only after 1/5th of the group had left, and transfers/furloughees had been brought over to undermine the movement.

I’m telling you now, because I was there. I sat there in training when we laughed out loud at our supposed competitor Flight Options. Every one of us saw their bedraggled pilots, shoddy equipment and sorry hotel arrangements. And even having seen that the group would rather tilt to that side than even give the union a chance.

And make no mistake. This wasn’t an informed group coming to a hard decision. I can promise you that 90% of the decerters never paid their dues, bothered to read union email updates, participated in the process or volunteered to do anything but keep their heads firmly stuck in the sand.

Well, when you stick you head in the sand you expose your a$$. And Mr. Ricci is well versed in taking advantage of that situation.

Again, I don’t fault you for not knowing, but the fact is you truly don’t know what went down nor are you remotely familiar with the Flex pilot group. In one fell swoop they made pariahs of themselves while sentencing their company to a painful death. They cannot grow. They cannot attract. And they cannot retain. They’re done. It’s all over but the crying, and they voted it upon themselves.

Flytolive

Rick Dubinsky more than any one person helped save the profession with the amazing job he did running the United pilot strike of 1985. He also delivered the only two UA non-concessionary contracts until C2012.

You simply don't understand the likes of Frank Lorenzo, Dick Ferris, Carl Icahn, et al. You don't understand capitalism. Bankers and bully CEOs only understand one thing. Power.

You seem to be alluding to a national seniority system. That would be great, but as you say parochial interests get in the way, but that is human (pilot) nature not unions. If you want to get rid of the seniority system who rates the pilots and determines who gets the choice assignments? How do you prevent pilot pushing? Please point us to an airline at which you theories have been proven.

You are long on criticism and short on solutions. Feel free to tell us how you would fix things. Be specific and save us the generalities. We are all ears.

Route66

I’m glad you’ve “enlightened” me on what I don’t understand. That right there is a problem. I know nothing and you know everything.

How about we form our own corporation and provide training to OUR shareholders....the pilots? Unfortunately that is a venture that the pilots, as you would agree, have too many parochial interests that get in the way.

What I have been saying and will continue to say is that the power labors have traditionally had have changed its the times. Instead of name calling, instead of “looking down your nose” at those in similar positions in the profession maybe there is some kind of “master plan” that could serve the overall professions interests.

Welcoming involvement and a shared value system would go along way. But alas, I am like most. Sceptical.

B727DRVR

OK,

I can't take this nonsensical dribble any more... " Rick Dubinsky was bad at United and he's worst at Teamsters." REALLY!?!?!?!?!

Rick Dubinsky negotiated what was considered the high water mark of all the pre-September 11 Airline contracts with the United Airlines 2000 ALPA Contract. How was that bad for United pilots, or pilots ANYWHERE?!? Seriously! Then, when the Teamsters were attempting to negotiate an industry leading contract for the Netjets pilots, they decided to seek out from ALPA, one of their best and brightest.. the man who negotiated one of the best pilot contracts in history, United Airlines Captain Rick Dubinsky.

At that time, in 2002, NetJets was Executive Jet, and it was not one of the better places to work. Flight Options was actually considered to be the better place to work at that time. Then, you could only live in one of 5 bases and you had to be there 12 hours in advance. Starting pay for a Citation Captain was around $35,000, and adjusted for inflation, that still S$&KS... NetJets Contract 2005 changed all that and made NetJets NETJETS! Rick Dubinsky helped to negotiate this contract that literally changed Fractional Aviation from a life raft for furloughed pilots and a stepping stone for beginning pilots, to a true career destination for some. Much like the third and fourth waves of troops on D-Day, the NetJets First Wave of pilots "storming the beaches" under Captain Dubinsky's leadership, made life for better for all pilots, not just fractional ones. It is well known that Flexjet smartly raised its pay after the success of the Netjets pilots had in negotiating their Contract 2005. Netjets Contract, which Captain Dubinsky negotiated, set the standard for all Fractional pilots to look up to and particularly the Flexjets pilots lives improved due to the bravery, tenacity, and guts that the Netjets pilots showed during their campaign to make Netjets the place to retire with an Industry-leading contract. PLEASE TELL ME HOW AND WHY RICK DUBINSKY WAS BAD AT UNITED and "WORST" AT TEAMSTERS!?! Seriously, I really want to hear how the Father of the United 2000 Contract and the Father on the NetJets 2005 Contract was bad or "worst".... OK, I guess that it didn't hurt their chances when the Netjets pilots picketed the Berkshire Hathaway headquarters or their Santulli and Buffet embarrassing banner tow fly-by at the Kentucky Derby that exposed the lie that Netjets pilots were the "highest paid".


As far a labor unions and America go, when Unions were strong , America was strong. Unions are what made the middle class, the MIDDLE CLASS. Before workers raised up against their robber barron bosses in sweatshops during the Gilded Age, America was a Third World country, where like all Third World countries you are either dirt poor or mega rich, no middle class. And I have said it many times on this site before, but the reason that the Majors are THE MAJORS and NetJets is NETJETS, is that their pilots have fought for and negotiated their hard-fought gains through collective bargaining, not through the benevolence of their Management teams that are just passing through with their golden parachutes strapped to their backs.


As far as American Airlines goes, if you had any idea of what AA pilots went through in the early days to get where they were now, you wouldn't be saying what you are saying about Unions. ALPA was a secret society started as a push for safety and better working conditions in 1932. It was so secret that it was only discovered when they found the Union card in a deceased pilot's wallet. My Dad flew for AA from 1941 until 1969, and I can tell you that there were no Lump Sum retirements and A or B Funds in those days. All pilots, AA included, fought hard for what they got and now you are benefitting from it. Before the AA pilots organized, working conditions there were not unlike South Florida Part 135 operators were even up to a few years ago, and it was the constant fight to improve their individual Contracts that made life better, and safer, for all pilots. Things like TCAS, for example, didn't come because airline managements sought to be safer (they didn't want it or other safety things because it was too expensive), it was the pilots and their Unions that pushed so hard for safety. If you think that life would be better without a CBA, I urge you to ask how many members of your Management have their OWN contracts. It's like Rush, Hannity, O'Reiley, etc. busting on Unions, but all being members of the Screen Actors Guild.



Seriously, it's sheer hypocrisy to be an obvious beneficiary of a CBA that pilots have fought for 85 years to build on and to say what you are saying. If you truly feel this way about your Union, your CBA, and Unions in general, then I urge you to seek employment at one of the several Part 135 or Part 91 operators run out of double-wides where you won't be encumbered by a pesky Collective Bargaining Agreement that spells out, and protects, your pay, schedule, working conditions, etc. Good luck with that.