CFI needs advice
 

This is a question for you CFI's out there. I have a student who is nearing the end of his instrument training but is still having quite a bit of difficulty. I think it all boils down to a lack of confidence. His knowledge isn't that bad and he can fly an airplane ok, but he can't demonstrate that he can do everything on his own. He is constantly behind the airplane.

I am constantly having to remind him to do his checklists and tell him what to say on the radios. Every time approach gives him a clearance or instruction he then looks at me and asks if we should do what the controller told him to do. He also begins over-controlling anytime his workload increases. He also demonstrates very poor situational awareness and judgement. To give you an idea, recently while VFR and practicing holding patterns, approach told him there was traffic inbound to the VOR he was holding over at the same altitude and only a short distance away. He failed to acknowledge the controller or take any corrective action to avoid the other traffic. When asked if he heard the radio call, he said he did but showed no concern for the other traffic and continued holding at that altitude.

I give him positive reinforcement when he does something right and have tried to let him fly approaches, holds, etc. without any help from me to try and build his confidence. I literally have had to sit on my hands and let him fly, brief approaches, talk on the radios, etc but he continues to be behind the airplane. It seems as if he has plateaued the last several weeks as he is not making any real progress. I am trying to arrange for him to do a flight with another instructor so maybe he can hear it from someone else other than me, but it is likely that won't be possible for another week. I am confident if I were to sign him off for a checkride he would not pass on the first attempt.

Any tips or advice would greatly be appreciated.

From what you describe, it sounds like the student may really be sub-par.

- Attempt to determine if the student is doing sufficient outside prep (chair flying, listening to ATC freqs, practicing radio calls, etc.)

- Use the sim, if you haven't already, to solidify his comfort level with various IFR tasks before going back into the airplane.


If this doesn't work, you have to look at the students goals:

- Commercial wannabe: You may have to explain to this guy that his odds of making it as a professional are low. IFR is the meat-and-potatoes of professional flying, and a low aptitude for multi-tasking is not a good thing. It is possible that he can eventually "get-it" by spending extra time and money training, but his first airline job will NOT provide extra training when he struggles with the simulator.

- Recreational Pilot: If he's willing to spend extra time and money, he may be able to get it done by brute force. HOWEVER...he needs to be warned that his low multi-tasking ability makes him a high-risk IFR pilot...ie he needs to be VERY careful about using his ticket in IMC, if he uses it at all.

It's blows to have to have this conversation, but you owe it to the student to provide an honset appraisal.

Thanks rick.

He wants to fly commercially and you make a good point. We fly again this afternoon and I'll emphasize that. We've used the sim quite a bit but the result is the same. I'll also assign him a different approaches today than the local ones we routinely practice to give him something new. We'll have to go out of our way a bit, but I think it will be well worth it. Thanks again!

Sounds like he needs to learn how to be a private pilot first. Not everyone can get all their ratings in 100 hours. He may very well turn out to be a good all around pilot but it sounds like he is way behind the aircraft. He sure seems overwhelmed at this point.

Unfortunately for professional pilots.....Wannabes get to play on our playing field. If you don't think he is ready, don't sign him off. He will be flying in our airspace.

This is the most important thing you can do, or I guess not do.

On with what's actually wrong with your student. How many hours/week are you flying? Could it just be a general over-load of information on top of daily life issues? You're idea of another instructor flying with them is great!!! I recommend it to all CFI's to split time with anothers' students, especially when some kind of problem occurs, or it's coming up on check-ride time. Everyone learns differently and it's just about finding that certain way to bring it across to them.

You are doing a great thing, and as a fellow CFI-I I'm glad you brought up questions about a problem student. I had the same problem, except my guy was an older, recreational pilot. I doubt he'll ever be 100% proficient. Been there, done that, unfortunately I never saw the end of his training(not sure if he did finish or not even) since I moved on in the career.

Good Luck!!!!

Thanks for everyone's posts so far. I appreciate everyone's input.

Ewf -- we fly anywhere from 1 to 3 times a week. At the moment we only have two instrument trainers and about 50 - 100 instrument students so scheduling is a pain in the neck. He did ok this afternoon, not to PTS, but better so thats good i suppose. Today we went back to review some BAI and then shot a VOR approach where the final approach fix is a NDB magnetic bearing from an NDB 15 miles away.

Getting back to basics is a good thing. In the zeal to get people finished fast or when picking a student up from a different instructor I've noticed that something critical was missed and is now painfully obvious.

I'd break it down a bit like you're doing, then build back up with an emphasis on flying the plane first and foremost.

Hey multipilot, I feel I am that student for a reason or another. I am just about to finish my IFR training, and I do the exactly same things that your student does. I am not an instructor, but I can give you a feedback from the other sit. I work full time (is your student working?) and I am studying full time. I try to fly as much as I can since my goal is to fly commercial. When I fly during the week, it is usually late after work, so that all my energy are gone by then. Concentration at that point of the day is fairly poor. I try to do the best I can, listen to liveATC every morning, practicing with COMM1sim, flight simulator, etc.. The only thing I do not do often is "chiarflying", which I believe is really helpful. My instructor is great, but sometimes I feel like I am too "pampered". Like you were saying about trying to stay ahead of the plane. He takes corrective action before I realize that I made a mistake. For instance with radio com. If I dont answer the radio after the first call, He will do it automatically so that after a couple of times I think that it is ok not to answer or I just think that he will do it out of pitty. Also there is always a friendly relationship between us so that I feel he does not want to tell me what he really thinks about my way of flying.
Another point is that I am part 141 and the syllabus we are using has just two stagechecks. I feel like I need to fly with some other instructor to have a different opinion.
I hope I am not that student but the things you said, really opened my eyes about my future. I think that us students need to know what you instructors think. Even if that means that flying is not our destiny.

Baron,

It's one thing to have difficulty because of that pesky thing called life getting in our way. I think at one point or another we all experience that. However, there are some people that simply don't belong in a plane for a variety of reasons. Some simply don't grasp it.

When I was a "new" instructor (I've only been doing it for a year, still learning new things every day) I had a commercial student who had been flying for a few years and had as many or more hours than I did tell me "I know how to fly, don't touch anything when I make a mistake unless it's going to kill us". Not realizing it, I was stepping in every time he made did something such as missing a checklist item. As a result, he was constantly missing these items. Since then I've done my best to just make a note of it or step in only when the situation dictates it.

If you feel your instructor is doing too much pampering as you put it, tell him to stop. He's not doing either of you any good. Once my student had this talk with me, I noticed a vast improvement in his progress as well as many of my other students who were at a point where I didn't need to "hold their hand" as much as a 3 hour student.

I've been stuck being the instructor to tell a few guys flying might not be their thing. It sucks. If you and the other instructor(s) who work with a student come to this conclusion, there is nothing like letting the student fly the sim into a mountain, and then having the "talk".

Good points above. One of the hardest things for an instructor is to let mistakes just happen. This was one of the more difficult behaviors for me to over-come. I know the more veterened I got, the less I cared if a student banged one in(you know, the borderline landing that might or might not have set the ELT off). Things like those are hard for us as instructors to let go, but in the end, you have to so the student can see the "Worst Case" scenario and hopefully the next time be able to recognize the sypmtoms and recover before they set it up again.

Now if they continue to make these major mistakes over and over, and it's becoming a safety issue, have another instructor go with them and see if there's something you are missing. Using another set of eyes/ears/brains is one of the best tools out there that are definately under-utilized. As long as you got 2 instructors, have an even switch so each person doesn't feel as if they are getting shorted also.

Are you talking about me? I think I remember saying something like that to you.

I've been instructing for 4 months now, and it is very hard to not step in right away when a student misses something. I also have a student who may not be meant to fly an airplane, and I have had the talk with her, but she wants to keep trying. She is going to meet with a female DE which I think will be good for her to get an experienced woman's perspective on women in aviaton. Good luck with your student.

No, somebody else. You didn't miss anything. I was new and extremely jumpy at that time as I'm sure you can relate to. This guy was a little later down the line.

Now I'm at the point where I have to keep from cringing or doing anything else obvious when something ugly (but not dangerous) is about to happen.

One other thing I should point out. I think it's important for instructors to talk to their peers about issues students may have. We have limited experiences and often limit our teaching to problems we know (like one's we've had in the past). There have been a number of experiences where a student "didn't get it" and all it took was trying a different approach suggested by another instructor or having the student fly once with somebody else.

Send him up with another CFI. Not being rude or saying anything about your skills. Just with another CFI he won't feel comfortable which I think is the issue. I've come across this.

As a cfi you are always doing little things here and there. Either you don't realize you are doing them or they are so little you do them and don't say anything. In my case I'm always doing them on purporse but don't say anything because I'm already correcting him enough and there is only so much I can correct him on before he'd feel like I'm beating him like a borrowed mule and he won't learn anything at all. The student knows what you do and don't do. Most likely on a subconsious level. Send him up with another CFI. Good cop/bad cop style. Have the other CFI tell him he isn't doing anything for the entire flight except scanning for aircraft. Your student will know he is on his own and will do much better. I personally always flew my best on checkrides because of that. however my orals have always sucked which is why i'm panicing about regional interviews lol. Just my .02

Also positive reinforcement is good to help a student learn. Once you know he knows the materials I find it very effective to come down on him. However do it using terms like "I know you can do this I've seen you do it before but this isn't going to cut it". Serously it makes them do better. While I've never taught an instrument student I've used it on ALL my airforce peeps and I haven't had one fail yet after 38 students :D

Not everyone is cutout to be a pilot, much less comerical/ATP.. at some point you need to just tell him "look for anther career".. I've had to do that with a few students in my days as a CFI..

Thanks for everyone's input so far. I honestly believe its a cognitive issue with this particular student. His reasoning, judgment, and awareness skills are simply not there. For example, we flew four days ago and tower assigned him a routine taxi clearance to taxi to the runway via taxiway H. We get this clearance 97% of the time. He then proceeds to taxi to a taxiway D at midfield. When I asked him what it was he was doing, he said he was taxiing to taxiway H and points at D. Hopefully after spring break I will be able to schedule a flight for him with the chief instructor. After that, depending on how it goes, we will more than likely sit down with him and have a discussion.

Well, that definately is bad. Taxiing and Taxiway markings definately can be challenging for people. I remember I had some trouble with it, so I asked ground control to taxi me around for a bit before our activity. Thats something that you and your student could do to get familiar with clearances and markings.

Also, as others have said, one of the best things you can do is to simply not do anything (unless its dangerous). I recall things as simple as forgetting the takeoff checklist, and of course my instructor noticed I forgot, but when tower called to say "XXX11 not receiving transponder, recycle". uh...oops. Its embarrassing to make mistakes, and you learn from them.

I also recall the first time I did a tail strike on landing, getting my PPL...flared too much. It wasn't terrible, or dangerous, but it was embarrassing.

I dont have any of my CFI ratings...it definately sounds like a challenge. I dont think I could break it to people that they should look for a new career!

tail strike on landing? That is pretty tough to do, and it could be dangerous. any part of the aircraft touching the ground besides the gear is a serious thing. My curiousity is wondering how you pulled such a feat, and seriously not being sarcastic.

My point is made.

It's rather easy if there's a lot of seats filled and the CG is far enough aft. High gross weight means high AOA to compensate, and a sufficiently aft CG means it's easy to get into a nose high attitude on roundout. I was along for a ride once when a guy did a tailstrike in a 172, had to put another tie down ring back there. The rings are not as cheap as they look. I would say flatspotting the tires is more egregious than gentle tailscrapes because side loads will eventually buckle the suspension, leading to serious ground contact and a prop strike.

I've struck a C-172 and M20 Mooney. give it a little gas while rolling down the runway and rotate. You can make the 172 rub everytime. Doesn't hurt anything as you can barely feel it. But I've had a few students do it. As for the Mooney. You can strike those on no flap landings easily. On my CFI checkride at the FSDO he gave me a point on the runway to poweroff 180 to. The reported winds was broken so I was eyeballing it and they ended up being about 12kts. So i never used flaps and floated forever trying to make it to the point. Literally I landed on the exact inch and drug the tail doing it. Neither were anything to worry about.

The taxi incident reminded me of a student sorta like yours, except he had the skills, just didn't really care. Basically this crap was building up, so I just chewed him a new ass!!!! I look back at it now and laugh, but at the time I was so ****ed because of his laziness etc.... From that point on, I saw a great improvement. Makes me wonder if he made it.

Does that do any other strutural damage to the plane? Nearly all of the 172's and 152's that I have flown in have a flat spot on the tail tiedown ring. Just wondering....

I don't know if you are still looking for info on this situation but I feel like dropping my 2 cents in here.

1. Sit the student down, with charts, and go over each type of approach and each type of entry. Have the student state back what he is going to do and when he is going to do it.

2. Get in the sim, but don't have the student fly. You fly. Let the student tell you what to do and you act like an autopilot. Keep doing this until the student doesn't miss a step.

3. In the sim, have the student fly and do everything. Start simple and move into the more complicated. I.E. first approach is an ILS with vectors to final, second is a VOR with vectors to final, third is a VOR with a procedure turn etc.

4. Repeat the same appraoches in the aircraft.

5. Change things up. Go to different, do increasingly more difficult approaches but don't give him more than he can handle. Confidence is his problem and break downs will only hurt that confidence. If he is slightly behind the approach do it until he gets it right, if he digresses go back to an easier approach.

Finally, keep notes of mistakes and discuss them after the flight. No one hears you when they are flying, especially when they are new. They are concentrating on just keeping the aircraft straight and level, remember that is still a work out for them! If for some reason something comes up that is so important that you absolutely can not let it wait until you get on the ground...take the aircraft, then tell the student what he needs to know, ask him to repeat it back to you then give him back the controls and let him demonstrate his new found knowledge.