Holding Patterns
08-02-2017, 10:47 AM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 35
There's an app in the Apple Store called Hold Trainer. I think it's still free and if not it's only a couple dollars. I practiced with it for a few hours when I had down time and I was able to find the correct entries in my head after that. It's one of those things that once it clicks, you won't understand why you ever had an issue with it.
08-02-2017, 09:49 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,979
Originally Posted by Clue32
Pencil method... Take a pencil or pen, hold it horizontal to your HSI / DG through the middle of the instrument. If you are making right turns, pop the right side of the pencil "up" 20 degrees. Imagine a line coming down from your heading at the top of the HSI / DG to the pencil. You just made all three entry sections. Where your OUTBOUND course falls is the type of entry you need to make.
08-03-2017, 07:49 AM
#13
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 12
There are all kinds of standard methods to do holds but I never liked things like the pencil method, 20 deg angle to the horizonal, whatever, dont even know because I dont use it. All that stuff requires too much thinking for my little brain in flight, it changes with left or right patterns, etc.
When I was doing my IR, someone told me "use whatever method requires you to turn the least". Trace out a few holds with some different scenarios using the FAA ways and you will see eventually that what its "supposed to be" will require the least turning or least zig zigging. IE if its supposed to be parallel, tear drop would require you to go to the fix then turn back away in direction you came then go back the other way again. Does not seem "right" so its parallel. If its supposed to be tear drop, youd have to turn away from the "drop" part (which you are already roughly pointed at) and force a hard turn to make it a parallel entry. Again, it does not seem right so its teardrop. Not scientific but thats how I think of it.
Either way, dont know why more people dont just do a 90/270 to reverse direction and call it good. Thats what I do when not training students the "right way" or I'm flying on my own and get a hold. Its either a direct entry or a 90/270. Nothing else to think about, works every single time. Fly to the fix, fly outbound in the "wrong" direction for 1 min (or whatever) then a 90deg turn toward the protected side of the hold right into a 270 turn in the opposite direction. It will pretty much put you back in the same place you started the turn from. Fly inbound and fly hold normally.
So many, including the FAA get way too hung up on holds. You really can do whatever the heck you want as long as you stay in the protected area.
When I was doing my IR, someone told me "use whatever method requires you to turn the least". Trace out a few holds with some different scenarios using the FAA ways and you will see eventually that what its "supposed to be" will require the least turning or least zig zigging. IE if its supposed to be parallel, tear drop would require you to go to the fix then turn back away in direction you came then go back the other way again. Does not seem "right" so its parallel. If its supposed to be tear drop, youd have to turn away from the "drop" part (which you are already roughly pointed at) and force a hard turn to make it a parallel entry. Again, it does not seem right so its teardrop. Not scientific but thats how I think of it.
Either way, dont know why more people dont just do a 90/270 to reverse direction and call it good. Thats what I do when not training students the "right way" or I'm flying on my own and get a hold. Its either a direct entry or a 90/270. Nothing else to think about, works every single time. Fly to the fix, fly outbound in the "wrong" direction for 1 min (or whatever) then a 90deg turn toward the protected side of the hold right into a 270 turn in the opposite direction. It will pretty much put you back in the same place you started the turn from. Fly inbound and fly hold normally.
So many, including the FAA get way too hung up on holds. You really can do whatever the heck you want as long as you stay in the protected area.
08-03-2017, 09:21 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,979
Originally Posted by canav08
There are all kinds of standard methods to do holds but I never liked things like the pencil method, 20 deg angle to the horizonal, whatever, dont even know because I dont use it. All that stuff requires too much thinking for my little brain in flight, it changes with left or right patterns, etc.
When I was doing my IR, someone told me "use whatever method requires you to turn the least". Trace out a few holds with some different scenarios using the FAA ways and you will see eventually that what its "supposed to be" will require the least turning or least zig zigging. IE if its supposed to be parallel, tear drop would require you to go to the fix then turn back away in direction you came then go back the other way again. Does not seem "right" so its parallel. If its supposed to be tear drop, youd have to turn away from the "drop" part (which you are already roughly pointed at) and force a hard turn to make it a parallel entry. Again, it does not seem right so its teardrop. Not scientific but thats how I think of it.
Either way, dont know why more people dont just do a 90/270 to reverse direction and call it good. Thats what I do when not training students the "right way" or I'm flying on my own and get a hold. Its either a direct entry or a 90/270. Nothing else to think about, works every single time. Fly to the fix, fly outbound in the "wrong" direction for 1 min (or whatever) then a 90deg turn toward the protected side of the hold right into a 270 turn in the opposite direction. It will pretty much put you back in the same place you started the turn from. Fly inbound and fly hold normally.
So many, including the FAA get way too hung up on holds. You really can do whatever the heck you want as long as you stay in the protected area.
When I was doing my IR, someone told me "use whatever method requires you to turn the least". Trace out a few holds with some different scenarios using the FAA ways and you will see eventually that what its "supposed to be" will require the least turning or least zig zigging. IE if its supposed to be parallel, tear drop would require you to go to the fix then turn back away in direction you came then go back the other way again. Does not seem "right" so its parallel. If its supposed to be tear drop, youd have to turn away from the "drop" part (which you are already roughly pointed at) and force a hard turn to make it a parallel entry. Again, it does not seem right so its teardrop. Not scientific but thats how I think of it.
Either way, dont know why more people dont just do a 90/270 to reverse direction and call it good. Thats what I do when not training students the "right way" or I'm flying on my own and get a hold. Its either a direct entry or a 90/270. Nothing else to think about, works every single time. Fly to the fix, fly outbound in the "wrong" direction for 1 min (or whatever) then a 90deg turn toward the protected side of the hold right into a 270 turn in the opposite direction. It will pretty much put you back in the same place you started the turn from. Fly inbound and fly hold normally.
So many, including the FAA get way too hung up on holds. You really can do whatever the heck you want as long as you stay in the protected area.
Last edited by JamesNoBrakes; 08-03-2017 at 09:45 AM.
08-03-2017, 01:41 PM
#15
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
It sounds like you are describing course reversals as part of approaches and not hold entries. I'm pretty sure the methods for entering holds are specifically stated in the IFH.
Sure they talk all about hold entries in the IFH, hence my comments about the FAA, and others for that matter, being too hung up on making it complicated. The IFH is not a regulatory document... I don't know of document that says you must use standard entries.
Course reversals as part of an IAP have headings depicted on the charts and thats how I fly them as the inbound depicted heading is usually a 45 deg intercept to the FAC and works quite nicely
08-03-2017, 05:12 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,979
Originally Posted by canav08
That is how I enter *holds* if its not direct. If Im not teaching a student, its all I ever do, direct or 90/270. Ive never had a problem with it and nobody has yelled at me.
Sure they talk all about hold entries in the IFH, hence my comments about the FAA, and others for that matter, being too hung up on making it complicated. The IFH is not a regulatory document... I don't know of document that says you must use standard entries.
Course reversals as part of an IAP have headings depicted on the charts and thats how I fly them as the inbound depicted heading is usually a 45 deg intercept to the FAC and works quite nicely
Sure they talk all about hold entries in the IFH, hence my comments about the FAA, and others for that matter, being too hung up on making it complicated. The IFH is not a regulatory document... I don't know of document that says you must use standard entries.
Course reversals as part of an IAP have headings depicted on the charts and thats how I fly them as the inbound depicted heading is usually a 45 deg intercept to the FAC and works quite nicely
08-04-2017, 05:30 AM
#17
Wake me up on descent..
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 35
Originally Posted by Lagoon
Does anyone have tips on how to do these well?
I seem to be struggling with figuring out the entries into the pattern while I'm flying, as it takes from my focus on scanning the instruments and flying the plane.
Is there a quick and fool proof way that others have tried?
Thanks.
I seem to be struggling with figuring out the entries into the pattern while I'm flying, as it takes from my focus on scanning the instruments and flying the plane.
Is there a quick and fool proof way that others have tried?
Thanks.
Seems to work for me, and I need all the help I can get :-) Just my 2 cents, hopefully it helps!
08-05-2017, 03:05 PM
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 35
Originally Posted by atpcfi
There's an app in the Apple Store called Hold Trainer. I think it's still free and if not it's only a couple dollars. I practiced with it for a few hours when I had down time and I was able to find the correct entries in my head after that. It's one of those things that once it clicks, you won't understand why you ever had an issue with it.
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