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Old 10-17-2017, 07:07 PM   #11  
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Cite your source?
Me, an airline pilot with 20 years experience. If you don't believe me, walk through an airport and stop an airline pilot, they will tell you. ATP does the industry a disservice.
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Old 10-17-2017, 08:46 PM   #12  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirringer View Post
Me, an airline pilot with 20 years experience. If you don't believe me, walk through an airport and stop an airline pilot, they will tell you. ATP does the industry a disservice.
If "the majority of ATP students flunk out" then you need to back that statement up with numbers... show us the proof...


Otherwise:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
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Old 10-22-2017, 03:33 AM   #13  
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ATP flight school is a puppy mill. They have a fixed cost ( if you can make it, otherwise, the price will increase rapidly, until you no longer can afford it, then they will kick you out.), but if you have endless cash to spend you will be a pilot ( or not ) because they love to suck you dry.
the plus side of ATP is the new fleet, the downside is the lack of true motivation from 80% to 90% of CFIs ( other than your flight time ), due to their well below average pay, on top of being a '1099'.

I am a former student and CFI for them, and let me tell you, I graduated in 6 months in 2013, my cost was approx. $500 above advertised ( extra few C172 hours) worked for them for 1 year and 4 months, made $16000 my first year (2014). I regret staying there so long, focused on their propaganda, about "airline interviews" and "no one flies more than them" which are 2 big LIES. Flew 3 months to USAA in Denton, TX and i had a blast, nice people, made me feel at home away from home, lots of flight time 250 hours in 3 month, weekends off, and really good money.

these are my 2 cents.

good luck
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Old 10-22-2017, 07:03 AM   #14  
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Hi,

I am looking to being training next spring and have been looking at ATP Flight School mostly but also heard about American Flyers.

ATP is quite upfront about their costs and timelines but seems American Flyers don't disclose these details. Does anyone know how much American Flyers cost and timelines for each stage of process?

Also is there much difference between the schools in terms of getting placed and earning potential since I know ATP offer a guaranteed instructor placement.

Or are there any other recommendations for schools? I am based in Dallas, TX and currently only have about 2 hrs of flying logged through intro lessons so would basically need to start from zero experience.
DO NOT go all in to ATP or some other expensive outfit. Find a local flying club and get your private done cheaply. Just search for local flight clubs on google. There are also places in KS that offer an initial private rating for 6-7k. The place to ask about private pilot stuff isn't on here, better to ask on www.reddit.com/r/flying and you will get lots of good answers.

ATP and the academies are generally huge rip offs, they just debt saddle people who don't know any better. By the time I do my commercial multi I prob will have spent 30K max. ATP would have cost me double that.
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Old 10-23-2017, 02:28 PM   #15  
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Got it, the last class at my airline had 30 students, 8 were from ATP, none of them made it through sim training. Any other questions or was that too anecdotal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicFlyer View Post
If "the majority of ATP students flunk out" then you need to back that statement up with numbers... show us the proof...


Otherwise:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
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Old 10-23-2017, 05:59 PM   #16  
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Got it, the last class at my airline had 30 students, 8 were from ATP, none of them made it through sim training. Any other questions or was that too anecdotal?
What airline? Were they CFIs? What was the cause of their failure? How often does this happen?

And yes it is anecdotal. And it is also this too:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter
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Old 10-24-2017, 09:18 AM   #17  
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Wether you go to a "big time academy" or a "mom n pop" fbo/club, you'll end up in the same spot as someone who went a different route, i.e. a handful of FAA certs.

Each type of organization churns out great pilots and not so great pilots.

The key to choosing one over the other is not so much listening to those who have a hard coded hatred of one method over the other, but taking a long, hard look at what you - the individual - want and need out of a training program.

ATP has very little flexibility in their program. They are also on the expensive side. On the other hand, they and others like them can get you from 0 to CFI relatively quickly. Mom n Pop? It will take you longer, but likely less expensive in the long run. There are also a lot of variations in the FBO/club market as some see flight instruction as a side business while others may have a more focused business model.

Which one is better, again, is solely dependent on the individual.
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Old 10-25-2017, 05:28 PM   #18  
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I will second what FlyingStormie just wrote. I used to work at American Flyers out of their KSMO location. Was not impressed at all. Why would you want to pay $260.00 Dual for a C-172!! Really? Their CFI's were good people trying to further their careers. Their management were less to be desired people. I'm sure there are other people out there that had good experiences with AMF's.

I'd say to find a smaller less expensive school and not be lured with the "Fast Track" propaganda. You will end up in the same lobby with the other guys and gals that spent much more for the same certificates. My two cents.

-Grumpy
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:33 AM   #19  
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I went to American Flyers at ADS to earn my CFI over the summer. Great program, and they produce good pilots through their structured (if very expensive) program. Almost all the instructors are Gold Seal, and all except one of the instructors I met there went through the same CFI academy I did at American Flyers. First time pass rates are above 90% for PPL and IR, and CFI pass rates hover around 80%. My class month had a 70% first-time pass rate; the decrease was probably due to my class being the largest they've ever had and we stretched their resources a bit thin on us. This suggests to me that at the very least, the CFI academy is effective at producing CFIs capable of instructing to the ACS standard examiners are looking for due to the pass rates and the fact the CFIs with those pass rates are from the academy.

While I was at AF, I met two multi-CPL graduates from ATP. They both came to American Flyers because the CFI program at ATP was ineffective at preparing its applicants for their checkrides (one of my friends quoted his former instructor at ATP saying that "he'd be lucky if 1/3rd of the CFI-A applicants would pass the first time around"). They both had several stories to tell of people who made it through who rote memorized the material and lacked basic piloting skills yet still managed to pass checkrides. They also both experienced variety in instructional quality; some instructors were great and inspiring at ATP, others were unapologetically there for the hours. They showed me the ATP ground school app they were supposed to use for learning and talked about how they were expected to self study to completion. It's supposed to reduce the amount of ground instruction done by instructors, but for most of their students it was difficult to stay motivated and on track. They both agreed ATP can be a great program if you're really good at self studying. Both also went from 0 hours to multi-CPL within 14 months. My sample size of two ATP-survivors is nothing scientific, but it does seem to echo a lot of other complaints I've read here and at r/flying of how effective ATP is.
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Old 11-12-2017, 01:40 PM   #20  
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Stay away from American liars...I mean American Flyers. AF will $%* you over.
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