ATP vs American Flyers vs others
 

Hi,

I am looking to being training next spring and have been looking at ATP Flight School mostly but also heard about American Flyers.

ATP is quite upfront about their costs and timelines but seems American Flyers don't disclose these details. Does anyone know how much American Flyers cost and timelines for each stage of process?

Also is there much difference between the schools in terms of getting placed and earning potential since I know ATP offer a guaranteed instructor placement.

Or are there any other recommendations for schools? I am based in Dallas, TX and currently only have about 2 hrs of flying logged through intro lessons so would basically need to start from zero experience.

Im not sure of timelines but this is the American Flyers pricing current as of last week.


Solo C172 $225 per hour
Dual C172 $260 per hour
Ground instruction $90 per hour
Weekend written exam course $495
Written exam fee $165
DPE fee $600

At those prices I would NEVER go there. It makes ATP look like a great deal!

The issue I had with the ATP guaranteed CFI position is that you basically need to go where they want you to go. They give you a choice of locations that have vacancies, so you may end up working somewhere with lower potential for hours.

If you plan to make aviation a career, get used to going where you don't want to go.:D

From what I understand though if they don’t have a position available where you want to work then you can just go to another school and be a CFI there should they be hiring. Also since Dallas has 3 ATP schools I would just hope that one of those had a space when the time comes.

Problem with those prices is they are all ‘by the hour’ which means there is no way to control the price tag whereas at least ATP is a lump price.

You are not actually employed by ATP during your CFI phase, you are a contractor, so free to go wherever you want at any time (outside of ATP)

What do hourly rates have to do with anytgimg
 

As an airline pilot with over 20 years experience, I will say this, ATP produces crap. They do not educate and the majority of their pilots wash out. The select few that make it, well, they struggle.

ATP has financing, that's it. Multi time, who needs it these days? Get an education. I've flown with a lot of American Flyers graduates and they all know their stuff.

ATP's hourly rates are pretty close to those you listed for American Flyers, they just don't publish their hourly rates much. Also ATP includes a ton of time-sharing (two pilots logging PIC) which is how they keep their overall price somewhat competitive.

I think US Aviation's program with Tarrant County College is a better program at least for new high school graduates and others just starting their career. In two years you earn your licenses through CFII, an associates degree, and there is financing. Furthermore, its cheaper than ATP. Financing is also cheaper since your using higher education loans instead of vocational training loans. New-to-college students may also get the Pell Grant.

So if you are looking at flight schools in ADS airport I might suggest Monarch. Never flew with them but I had a few friends and students that did. They all had really good things to say about it. I know several of the DPEs in the area and they have said when it comes to American Flyers, ATP, and Monarch that Monarch puts out the best candidates.

Avoid US aviation academy at all cost. Same with skymates in Arlington. USAA may have some solid pilots but their equipment is terrible! I talked to a guy going through the program on my way to employee parking lot from DFW. He was working at Envoy on the ground side and flying at USAA and he said that half their 152s are down at the moment for maintenance. He said the hardest thing to do is get a working airplane because the Chinese students always had them booked up.

Cite your source?

Sorry your friend had a poor experience. Tarrant County College (TCC) does have a dedicated fleet of aircraft not shared with any other students.

The rest of the fleet is shared and we do give priority to students with check rides and stage checks. Every now and then we are slammed for maintenance and those without a check scheduled will get bumped. This happens at every flight school from time to time. We do not prioritize Chinese students over our domestic students, only by the type of flight. That said, 90%+ of our students are Chinese so when planes are tight, chances are that they will represent the majority of checks. Overall, we have very few flights year round cancel for lack of aircraft because we keep a number in reserve.

Me, an airline pilot with 20 years experience. If you don't believe me, walk through an airport and stop an airline pilot, they will tell you. ATP does the industry a disservice.

If "the majority of ATP students flunk out" then you need to back that statement up with numbers... show us the proof...


Otherwise:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

ATP flight school is a puppy mill. They have a fixed cost ( if you can make it, otherwise, the price will increase rapidly, until you no longer can afford it, then they will kick you out.), but if you have endless cash to spend you will be a pilot ( or not ) because they love to suck you dry.
the plus side of ATP is the new fleet, the downside is the lack of true motivation from 80% to 90% of CFIs ( other than your flight time ), due to their well below average pay, on top of being a '1099'.

I am a former student and CFI for them, and let me tell you, I graduated in 6 months in 2013, my cost was approx. $500 above advertised ( extra few C172 hours) worked for them for 1 year and 4 months, made $16000 my first year (2014). I regret staying there so long, focused on their propaganda, about "airline interviews" and "no one flies more than them" which are 2 big LIES. Flew 3 months to USAA in Denton, TX and i had a blast, nice people, made me feel at home away from home, lots of flight time 250 hours in 3 month, weekends off, and really good money.

these are my 2 cents.

good luck

DO NOT go all in to ATP or some other expensive outfit. Find a local flying club and get your private done cheaply. Just search for local flight clubs on google. There are also places in KS that offer an initial private rating for 6-7k. The place to ask about private pilot stuff isn't on here, better to ask on www.reddit.com/r/flying and you will get lots of good answers.

ATP and the academies are generally huge rip offs, they just debt saddle people who don't know any better. By the time I do my commercial multi I prob will have spent 30K max. ATP would have cost me double that.

Got it, the last class at my airline had 30 students, 8 were from ATP, none of them made it through sim training. Any other questions or was that too anecdotal?

What airline? Were they CFIs? What was the cause of their failure? How often does this happen?

And yes it is anecdotal. And it is also this too:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Wether you go to a "big time academy" or a "mom n pop" fbo/club, you'll end up in the same spot as someone who went a different route, i.e. a handful of FAA certs.

Each type of organization churns out great pilots and not so great pilots.

The key to choosing one over the other is not so much listening to those who have a hard coded hatred of one method over the other, but taking a long, hard look at what you - the individual - want and need out of a training program.

ATP has very little flexibility in their program. They are also on the expensive side. On the other hand, they and others like them can get you from 0 to CFI relatively quickly. Mom n Pop? It will take you longer, but likely less expensive in the long run. There are also a lot of variations in the FBO/club market as some see flight instruction as a side business while others may have a more focused business model.

Which one is better, again, is solely dependent on the individual.

I will second what FlyingStormie just wrote. I used to work at American Flyers out of their KSMO location. Was not impressed at all. Why would you want to pay $260.00 Dual for a C-172!! Really? Their CFI's were good people trying to further their careers. Their management were less to be desired people. I'm sure there are other people out there that had good experiences with AMF's.

I'd say to find a smaller less expensive school and not be lured with the "Fast Track" propaganda. You will end up in the same lobby with the other guys and gals that spent much more for the same certificates. My two cents.

-Grumpy

I went to American Flyers at ADS to earn my CFI over the summer. Great program, and they produce good pilots through their structured (if very expensive) program. Almost all the instructors are Gold Seal, and all except one of the instructors I met there went through the same CFI academy I did at American Flyers. First time pass rates are above 90% for PPL and IR, and CFI pass rates hover around 80%. My class month had a 70% first-time pass rate; the decrease was probably due to my class being the largest they've ever had and we stretched their resources a bit thin on us. This suggests to me that at the very least, the CFI academy is effective at producing CFIs capable of instructing to the ACS standard examiners are looking for due to the pass rates and the fact the CFIs with those pass rates are from the academy.

While I was at AF, I met two multi-CPL graduates from ATP. They both came to American Flyers because the CFI program at ATP was ineffective at preparing its applicants for their checkrides (one of my friends quoted his former instructor at ATP saying that "he'd be lucky if 1/3rd of the CFI-A applicants would pass the first time around"). They both had several stories to tell of people who made it through who rote memorized the material and lacked basic piloting skills yet still managed to pass checkrides. They also both experienced variety in instructional quality; some instructors were great and inspiring at ATP, others were unapologetically there for the hours. They showed me the ATP ground school app they were supposed to use for learning and talked about how they were expected to self study to completion. It's supposed to reduce the amount of ground instruction done by instructors, but for most of their students it was difficult to stay motivated and on track. They both agreed ATP can be a great program if you're really good at self studying. Both also went from 0 hours to multi-CPL within 14 months. My sample size of two ATP-survivors is nothing scientific, but it does seem to echo a lot of other complaints I've read here and at r/flying of how effective ATP is.

Stay away from American liars...I mean American Flyers. AF will $%* you over.

I know quite a few airline pilots from ATP who are great pilots. There are ones who aren’t as well.

Any school will have had pilots turn out. It’s not just ATP. It’s a good fit for certain people, but not everybody. Probably need to shop around to find the right school that fits your style.

Do NOT go to ALL ATP
 

I’m with Pirringer, ATP is a crap school. They do not teach you the fundamentals at all, just enough to possibly get through a check ride. My son signed up for ATP, and during instrument he failed his check ride, and another, so they washed him out and sent him packing with the entire bill. $70,000
What most people don’t know about ATP, is that on day 1 when you show for class they make you sign a contract for $500/hr Multi and $250/hour single if they wash you or you leave. Which are insane rates for these types of planes.
Not only did he not make it all the way through the program, but none of the other students (4 total that we knew of) he was rooming with didn’t either. I think ATP lures you with the Job at the end and a quick program and then they send you packing without half the training, but all of the bill.
Go to a Community College or a good flight School, NOT ATP!

Your son (and everyone else) is entitled to a prorated refund of all money not used. Since there is no legitimate way he, or anyone else for that matter, could have burned through the entire amount by the time of the Instrument checkride, he (or his lender) is due a sizable refund.

When I left ATP, I (my lender) had already made the first installment of $12500. When I withdrew, they immediately canceled the loan (I verified this via Sallie Mae) and began processing the refund. The unused funds were returned to Sallie Mae a full week earlier than ATP promised. The only money not returned was the $995 deposit and the handful of hours in the 172, which were billed in accordance with the rate sheet provided.

If ATP truly is not returning unused money, I suggest hiring an attorney.

I can vouch for American Flyers
 

And I can tell you that at least two ATP locations are absolute ****. ATP has so many locations that it's just not fair to say ATP is a **** school. It IS a pilot mill - so is American Flyers. But really it's about your CFI and you and what you put into it, just like any other education. You get out what you put in. I visited an ATP location and was not impressed with anything except the shiny new aircraft and the very long faces of the students and the incredibly terse and rude and overworked administrator who even the students insulted about her ability - that said enough to me.

American Flyers, at least the location I'm at, has only very good and dedicated and serious CFIs. My CFI is actually an ATP graduate and she is a very capable pilot, a very wise for her years teacher and absolutely gets into my head and heart and moves me forward. If it weren't for her I'd never know what LLWS feels like nor would I have conquered crosswinds or short fields or soft fields.

Yes, AF is expensive. No doubt. The aircraft at my location are also just a little beat up. The students are all happy, the curriculum is tailored individually, the ground school does seem like ticking a box for most of the CFIs but for others they're very very good. The weekend ground course is *great* and should be included in the price of the regular school but c'est la business.

I can't speak for the other locations, but I can say this: American Flyers feels invested in your success. ATP feels invested in picking your pocket. They really do not seem to give a damn how good of a pilot you become. I can say with complete confidence that the flight instructors at the AF location that I'm studying at not only want you to pass your checks but to be the sort of pilot they want in the left seat.

One last horn toot? Three of the five CFIs at this location are family of pilots of big name airlines. Connections count, but more importantly they chose this school for a reason.

Addison North?