Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Career Builder > Flight Schools and Training
Looking for 3rd Opinion (CFI's Please Read) >

Looking for 3rd Opinion (CFI's Please Read)

Notices
Flight Schools and Training Ratings, building hours, airmanship, CFI topics

Looking for 3rd Opinion (CFI's Please Read)

Old 01-27-2018, 03:58 PM
  #1  
On Reserve
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Default Looking for 3rd Opinion (CFI's Please Read)

My objective for posting this is to solicit more experienced opinions in regards.... essentially to the opinions I am already receiving. I want to know if I am putting to much weight in one, or not giving enough credit to another.

Status; 28 Years Old 42 Hour Student Pilot, Soloed', Solo XC'd

Should I seek a new instructor, or am I giving too much weight to another friendly pilot's opinion?


What happened;
During my dual night XC (destination non towered airport) after landing we struck a deer. At the time we were still rolling somewhere between 45-55 knots. It flew out of the darkness with a death wish, no time to react whatsoever. I think the profanity that left my mouth was probably muffled by the boom of the collision. We taxi'd off the runway, all well. I went for a mile jog back down the runway with my flashlight to drag the deer off incase somebody else wanted to land while my instructor called 911 and the airport mgr. I found the deer, it looked virtually untouched except everything forward of the ears was sliced clean off. It was a morbid sight, and I opted not to take a picture because I didn't want anybody else to have to see that sight. I dragged it off the runway and into the grass. I jogged the 1 mile back, we hung out in the pilot's lounge while the police and airport mgr arrived.

Police did a second sweep of the runway and brought back our transponder antenna. Instructor inspected the plane, and I inspected it haphazardly- really just looked at the dent on the bottom of the cowling, and the prop which had some hair and blood on it but appeared otherwise undamaged. After the runway was cleared the instructor conversed with the airport mgr and police for a short while and let them know there was a chance we would be needing their courtesy car but unlikely. Airport mgr told us where the nearest hotels were, and said they'd hang out in their warm truck till we were safely departed. At this point I realized we would potentially be flying the plane home. My instructor is an aircraft mechanic, and a well respected individual with many years in the area and an immaculate reputation. I was thinking well if he says it's good to go it's good to go. I really didn't think too much about it.


We made a max power run up, with my instructor outside the plane watching the prop spin and listening to it for a bit, then he got in the plane. We did some erratic taxiing and some hard braking to give the gear some work, everything checked out. Taxi'd out to the hold short line and did another full run up, everything good. We departed the airport with a soft field takeoff, did a climbing 180 and continued to climb parallel to the runway until we were (I don't really remember but probably something like 1500-2000 agl) then we headed home. It was about 80 nm, and we arrived without incident. Kept close watch on the performance instruments the whole way, and contemplated emergency landing scenarios as we passed airports. Came in high to the home field to keep that altitude until the last. Landed, soft field landing technique once again. No issues. Tied the airplane down and called it a late night.

At this point my takeaway from the incident was- "ok if something like this happens and it's minor I need to thoroughly examine the plane take all these precautions, etc..., if it's major an aircraft mechanic needs to look at it, lucky me my instructor is a certified mechanic. Check that box, good learning experience, goodnight."

The next day I share the story with a pilot mentor, CFI and friend who lives a bit far away, and after his initial reaction he posed the question; "how did you get home last night?"

Immediately my reaction was.... Oh... maybe that wasn't the best idea. I felt it important to explain all the precautions we took, so I did. My friend's reaction was.... he didn't buy it. He believed that the method my instructor used to determine if the engine was good was inadequate and that my instructor was unprofessional and reckless making the decision to fly home. He concluded that my instructor was in a compromised state of mind, and that had he been thinking clearly there's no way in hell we would have flown home that night.

Over the course of the last few days I have spoken with my friend as well as my instructor multiple times and frankly it has really stressed me out.

My instructor admitted there probably was a little pressure to get the plane home that night, and stands by the decision to fly the plane home, based on the idea that there was no question as to whether or not it was airworthy. A full teardown of the engine, was not necessary. I don't think he has contemplated this event as much as I have, and I have only because my friend had such a fiercely critical opinion.

My friend, and at this point myself, believe that indeed, my instructor WAS in a compromised state of mind. I have a hard time imagining that he would have elected to make that flight with a clear head after a good night's sleep, or if his wife was the passenger instead of me.

My friend's main point (and this took me a good 2 days of long texts and one very lengthy phone call to understand) is that the defining characteristic of a SAFE pilot is to recognize when the sequence of events leading up to an accident starts. A pilot needs to act OBJECTIVELY, distanced from the pressures and emotions. Our stance is that my instructor failed to do that, and has also failed to purvey that lesson to me.

I was rationalizing my instructors decision factoring in the late night fatigue, the desire to be home with our wives, and the desire to save our friend the airplane owner some money from an unnecessary hotel bill and who knows what other expenses this event has/would have incurred. I imagine there was also a desire to set a good example for me by remaining calm, and perhaps even downplaying the enormity of what had just happened. When I stop trying to do that, and put it down on paper (or typing it up right here) frankly it sounds pretty dam bad. If I ask myself the question, would I have taken that plane home if my wife was a passenger the answer is an easy one, hell no.

So here we are (friend and I), mutually acknowledging that my instructor did the best he could, but he screwed up, and risked both our lives.

So what is the appropriate course of action? My friend thinks I need a new instructor.

Personally, I want to say no my instructor is awesome and maybe he made this mistake but there's hundreds of others he HAS NOT made, or made them in the past and learned from them. Moreover, no instructor is perfect, and it highly likely that if I went with a new instructor I would get a worse one... His credentials and reputation are matched by nobody I have heard of or encountered, and I do not say that lightly or as a matter of bravado. But after our conversation, my instructor still stands by the decision to fly home... I feel if I pressed him hard enough he would arrive at the same conclusion; there were additional risks operating that plane with no engine teardown. It should not have been flown home at night, with a destroyed transponder. There should not have been anybody other than the mechanic/pilot in the aircraft when that risk was taken...

But hell, I am just a student pilot and that is a damn difficult conversation to have, accusing someone like him of a lapse of judgement 1.) because he is so much more experienced than me and 2.) because he's become a friend

I guess this post is becoming a little incoherent at this point...

I just dunno what to do. I'm tired, been stressing about this the past 3 days. Terrified that the insurance companies are somehow going to pin this on me, (was told I didn't need insurance because I was covered by my instructors- I believe this was sincere, and an effort to save students a little money) and now faced with the conclusion that my instructor took a needless risk with my life. Find a new instructor? Try and talk to my instructor and get him to be a little more introspective and hope that nothing like this happens again? Does this screw up warrant an end to his instruction or is my friend blowing up one mistake this man made out of a long and successful career?

Or am I missing something in my instructor/mechanic's assessment that the plane was 100% good to go? I find this unlikely...

Thoughts?

Last edited by goobscoob; 01-27-2018 at 04:12 PM.
goobscoob is offline  
Old 01-27-2018, 05:40 PM
  #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: JAFO- First Observer
Posts: 997
Default

Some Take-Aways from this:

#1 Read NTSB Part 830. You need to learn and understand what the definition of an aircraft accident is and how to report it.

#2 Your CFI needs to learn about aeronautical decision making and safety risk management.

#3 You and your CFI need to learn what constitutes an airworthty aircraft.

#4 The manufacturer of the prop and/or engine publishes policy and procedures for a “prop strike” and/or sudden stoppage of the engine.
Not saying it was required in your situation, but there is possibility that your CFI used his own “made up” criteria to determine if a/c was safe to fly.

#5 Learn and understand what a “Ferry Permit” (Special Flight Permit) is and how to get one from the FSDO.

#6 Always have a backup plan in case your flight cannot be completed as scheduled and do not give in to “”Get Home Itis”...

#7 Evaluate whether your CFI made the best decision in the interest of safety and whether you feel comfortable with the example he has set for you.
PerfInit is offline  
Old 01-27-2018, 05:53 PM
  #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: F-16
Posts: 184
Default

I don't know about Continentals, but I do know Lycoming requires a teardown inspection for a prop strike. A friend of mine hit a deer (sounds very similar to your incident) and Lycoming, when asked, was very clear that the prop hitting anything while under power was a prop strike.

Personally, even without knowing this, after an incident like that a couple things go through my mind.

1. You are not in a good mental state to fly. Get a room, sleep it off, and take another look in the morning. You'll live through a flight school chewing your ass. You probably won't when you have a low altitude engine failure at night.

2. I would not fly a plane after something like that without an A&P recertifying the plane as airworthy (in writing in the logbook). If it was a quick inspection like what you saw, I'd ask to see the manufacturers procedure for the inspection (even if I don't have a clue what some or most of the mx terms are). It will keep the A&P honest and you may very well learn something as they explain the inspection to you...

My $0.02 worth. Like anything in aviation, there are a million ways to skin a cat, and each pilot is dead set that their way is the best!
Droopy is offline  
Old 01-28-2018, 12:47 AM
  #4  
Disinterested Third Party
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,926
Default

That aircraft ceased to be airworthy at the time of the collision. If your instructor is also a mechanic, or claims to be one, he's neither much of a mechanic or instructor.

There was zero possibility of flying that airplane after that strike, legally, safely, or ethically, especially at night, and your instructor had no way of knowing the structural integrity of the aircraft. You experienced both a prop strike and a collision, involving multiple necessary inspections, including an engine teardown.

I am also an instructor and mechanic, several decades of experience. I wouldnt waste a minute's time on your instructor. He's placed you both in legal jeopardy, and risked your lives. Ditch him.
JohnBurke is offline  
Old 01-28-2018, 05:29 AM
  #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Aug 2017
Posts: 157
Default

Lemme get this straight:

You had a prop strike and collided with a large, heavy, moving object;

Your aircraft was damaged (missing antenna) that neither you nor the CFI was aware of until the police found it (what else was he not aware of?);

The CFI failed to do a runway sweep to check for other parts or possible runway strike;

The CFI "inspected" the damaged aircraft in the DARK;

The CFI elected to fly an aircraft, with a known prop strike, known damage to antennas and the cowling, at NIGHT, with no operable transponder to squawk 1200 or 7700 with, and he took you along for that ride;

Sure, seems absolutely legit...

NO! This was incredibly dangerous and he placed your life in jeopardy!
YOU should've stayed at the hotel or driven back in the courtesy car.

This is absolutely insane. If you called the the FSDO/FAA, do you think they would approve a NIGHT flight, in a DAMAGED acft, with no operable TRANSPONDER?

Time for a new CFI; a CFI's PRIMARY duty is Safety of Flight...instruction is secondary. He willingly placed your life at risk, in order to get the plane back home, and not report the incident to the FAA. His "reputation" ain't so Sterling anymore.

Holy Bajezzus dude, I am glad you are alive...
Castle Bravo is offline  
Old 01-28-2018, 06:17 AM
  #6  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,100
Default

Reality...

The plane was probably fine. A prop strike on a soft object like an animal, well the animal is going to lose. If the prop was not damaged visibly then the engine was fine. If nothing was bent structurally, then it should fly fine minus the transponder.

Probably the biggest risk would be the transponder antenna cable arcing and sparking, but turning the transponder off should fix that.

Regulatory...

The airplane needed a formal Mx inspection, comply with the engine mfgs requirements for whatever they define as a prop strike. The transponder needed to be INOPed. Might have needed permission to fly in a B circle without mode C, and might have needed a ferry permit.

Whether you keep the CFI or not probably depends on his attitude about it. Most CFI's are barely more experienced than their students... he's still learning too.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 01-28-2018, 01:23 PM
  #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Space Ranger's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Position: Star Commander
Posts: 151
Default

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Reality...

The plane was probably fine. A prop strike on a soft object like an animal, well the animal is going to lose. If the prop was not damaged visibly then the engine was fine. If nothing was bent structurally, then it should fly fine minus the transponder.

Probably the biggest risk would be the transponder antenna cable arcing and sparking, but turning the transponder off should fix that.

Regulatory...

The airplane needed a formal Mx inspection, comply with the engine mfgs requirements for whatever they define as a prop strike. The transponder needed to be INOPed. Might have needed permission to fly in a B circle without mode C, and might have needed a ferry permit.

Whether you keep the CFI or not probably depends on his attitude about it. Most CFI's are barely more experienced than their students... he's still learning too.
'Lotta doomsday scenario replies here but this is the most logical IMO.

I have a tough time finger pointing and making a bullet point list of things you did wrong, or things "you should know" as I was not there. At the very least you learned a valuable lesson and created a personal limitation for next time. It's all about the learning process.

As for the instructor change: No one here is going to be able to adequately make that decision for you. It may be as simple as asking yourself if you feel safe with this instructor to continue your training. If you need an outside opinion, bring it to the attention of the flight school.
Space Ranger is offline  
Old 01-29-2018, 04:40 AM
  #8  
On Reserve
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Default

Thank you for the input. Here are my thoughts after another full day of contemplation, much reading and discussion.

1.) The plane was PROBABLY safe to fly. Probably is not good enough at night, probably is not good enough with a student or any passenger. If he thought the risk was acceptable and worth it, he should have taken it the next day, alone.

2.) My instructor was not in a calm and collected state of mind. If he had been, he would have made better decisions. The decisions he made as an aircraft mechanic that night were also negatively influenced.
External Factors that influenced the poor decisions
-Fatigue
-Desire to be home
-Desire to not alarm the wife
-Desire to remain calm and set a good example for his student
-Desire to save the A/C owner some money

3.) There is no question at all, there are a million things I could have done better. My self-excuse over the past few days was that I made a conscious recognition that night that this was beyond my level of experience, and made a conscious decision to take a backseat approach and watch & learn from how my instructor handled the situation. This was a mistake. Watch & learn yes, but I should have kept my brain plugged in and realized how rushed and abnormal the whole procedure felt during departure. I did realize it, but I failed to act on it because I pushed it to the back of my mind in lieu of his expertise. I should have realized my instructor and myself were not in the right state of mind. Even if the plane was good, clearly we were not. If I want to be a pilot I need to demand the most from myself in ALL situations, whether it is dual instruction, SIC or PIC.

4.) Does this event warrant a new instructor? I have to agree with rickair7777 on that one, depends on his attitude. He has already acknowledged that it would have been better to inspect the plane during the daytime, as well as acknowledged there was pressure to get the plane home that night. What he has failed to acknowledge is that it effected his judgement. If he outright said “I screwed up. I should have realized the PIC was not ready to fly. I will do better next time.”- I think I’d feel safe to continue flying with him. Without that concession though I don’t think he will be keyed in to his own condition enough to make safe decisions for the both of us... The negative external influences could take effect anywhere, approaching a busy airport, in the traffic pattern, while executing a crappy landing... He HAS to be introspective and learn from this for me to continue with him.

This will not be a fun conversation to have.

Last edited by goobscoob; 01-29-2018 at 04:59 AM.
goobscoob is offline  
Old 01-30-2018, 11:37 PM
  #9  
Disinterested Third Party
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,926
Default

Originally Posted by goobscoob View Post
1.) The plane was PROBABLY safe to fly. Probably is not good enough at night, probably is not good enough with a student or any passenger. If he thought the risk was acceptable and worth it, he should have taken it the next day, alone.
The aircraft was not safe. It was no longer airworthy. It was not legal. Neither of you had any means of determining the status of the engine or airframe without a thorough inspection, which would have required, by necessity, a teardown of the engine and up to several weeks of time. A great deal of potential damage can exist beneath the surface, often unseen. A big question mark and an unairworthy aircraft does not make for a safe flight.

To be airworthy, an aircraft must be within compliance of its type certificate, and safe to fly. Yours was neither airworthy, nor legal, nor safe.

Originally Posted by goobscoob View Post

2.) My instructor was not in a calm and collected state of mind. If he had been, he would have made better decisions. The decisions he made as an aircraft mechanic that night were also negatively influenced.
External Factors that influenced the poor decisions
-Fatigue
-Desire to be home
-Desire to not alarm the wife
-Desire to remain calm and set a good example for his student
-Desire to save the A/C owner some money
The fact that your instructor was neither calm nor collected means he was not safe for flight. He certainly did not set a good example, but his actions were not legal, not conductive to safety, and his actions as a mechanic and instructor could easily cost him his FAA certification.

It's rightly said that when you undertake a flight, you should place the safety of that flight at a greater premium than your family, your religion, your government, or your pets. If you fail to conduct that flight safely, you may never see your family again, go to church, pay your taxes, or feed your pet. Stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime, your instructor cost his employer money as well as put the reputation and future of the company at risk. How much money might he have saved had your engine or propeller failed on your trip home.

What was he thinking conducting the flight back at a couple thousand feet, instead of climbing high enough to buy more glide time? Stupidity. Not as stupid as departing at night cross country after the deer strike, but one more broken link in the chain.

Originally Posted by goobscoob View Post
3.) There is no question at all, there are a million things I could have done better. My self-excuse over the past few days was that I made a conscious recognition that night that this was beyond my level of experience, and made a conscious decision to take a backseat approach and watch & learn from how my instructor handled the situation. This was a mistake. Watch & learn yes, but I should have kept my brain plugged in and realized how rushed and abnormal the whole procedure felt during departure. I did realize it, but I failed to act on it because I pushed it to the back of my mind in lieu of his expertise. I should have realized my instructor and myself were not in the right state of mind. Even if the plane was good, clearly we were not. If I want to be a pilot I need to demand the most from myself in ALL situations, whether it is dual instruction, SIC or PIC.
There is a moment in the film "Blue Thunder" in which the main character comments to a young, junior pilot, "You're supposed to be stupid. Don't abuse it."

You're not stupid. You're a student. When you're flying, you're flying on your instructor's certificate. He's responsible. With the added qualifications of mechanic, his culpability is all the greater.

Originally Posted by goobscoob View Post
4.) Does this event warrant a new instructor? I have to agree with rickair7777 on that one, depends on his attitude.
His attitude was laid bare when he made the call to fly home after the deer strike.

I'd have already fired him. His employer may have little choice if the FAA becomes involved, and the FAA should be involved. This pilot lacks the maturity, experience, wisdom, skill, leadership, and fortitude to make a simple, clear-cut decision. This event was not a grey area. It was not questionable from a maintenance standpoint, nor from that of an instructor. It is a gross failing on both counts, and you do your instructor no favor by attempting to absorb some of his blame.

You keep saying you should know better. You should know better than to continue flying with this instructor. Learning is defined by a change in behavior. Whether you fly with this instructor again will attest to your learning from this event.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Reality...

If the prop was not damaged visibly then the engine was fine.
Absolutely not; that's a very dangerous assumption, and no engine manufacturer provides guidance, following a prop strike, which suggests that so long as there's no visible damage on the prop, the matter is concluded. Quite the opposite. Damage may have taken place in multiple locations, many of which cannot be seen externally, and many of which can only be detected through nondestructive testing.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post

Probably the biggest risk would be the transponder antenna cable arcing and sparking, but turning the transponder off should fix that.
Really no risk of that, but the fact that the damage occurred to a part mechanically attached to the aircraft, following a collision on the runway, indicates a requirement for inspection beyond the surface. Had the airplane been altered in a manner acceptable to the administrator? No. It was unairworthy. With respect to the transponder antenna, several avenues would have been available for remedy, none of which were taken. An external inspection would have been insufficient for any of them.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
The transponder needed to be INOPed. Might have needed permission to fly in a B circle without mode C, and might have needed a ferry permit.
The transponder wasn't inoperative. The antenna was ripped off. Structural damage occurred. Not the same as inoperative instruments or hardware. While the instructor might have sought a special flight permit, the barrier to obtaining that permit wouldn't have been the transponder, but the prop strike and collision on the runway. As a certificated mechanic, the instructor couldn't reasonably argue he was unaware. That makes his decision all the more egregious.

Last edited by JohnBurke; 01-30-2018 at 11:55 PM.
JohnBurke is offline  
Old 01-31-2018, 02:23 AM
  #10  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 516
Default

You are playing Russian roulette flying in anything that does not have triple redundant everything, and/or an ejection seat! As a former mechanic all I can say is "If you only knew whats out there!" If you are second guessing a "good" outcome then do NOT be a pilot!
kevbo is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
SongMan
Flight Schools and Training
8
11-28-2008 12:32 PM
skypine27
Cargo
26
07-20-2007 07:10 AM
duvie
Major
119
07-12-2006 09:11 PM
CL65driver
Regional
66
06-22-2006 05:35 AM
Freight Dog
Pilot Health
1
06-04-2005 12:59 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices