flybub

I'm kind of in the same boat. Haven't flown for 15 years and getting back in the saddle. I have my commercial and instrument and looking to get my flight review and IPC done before moving on to get my CFI. I found a club at an airport with good rates for both planes and instructor. The only instructor who has an opening is an old fella who I have nothing against, but one of the first things he told me was there will not be an ipad in the plane. Unfortunately the planes certainly show their age. They are pretty beat up and some people have said the maintenance is okay at best. Their 182RG has been out of service for 6 months. The planes are not GPS equipped (there goes my enthusiasm for doing RNAV approaches, and my wife bought me an iPad for my birthday). He never flew jets or turbo props and has been instructing since the 70's. He tends to throw dirt on the other instructors, but whatever. I'm supposed to start flying with him next week, but just his tone and attitude pushes me away.

I'm 37 and I told him my intentions are to get my CFI and CFII and eventually go corporate or maybe a regional. His response, "Good luck with that, I don't see it happening". This was after a 10 minutes of first meeting him.

There is an FBO closer to me and the Chief Instructor is a former 767 captain and a guy who you could sit at the airport and talk aviation with until the cows come home. He told me to shoot for the stars because it is certainly possible. Really nice aircraft that are all GPS equipped and the instructors are all super nice. Unfortunately, their rates are much higher.

At this point I'm tempted to pay more for a guy who supports what I'm working towards than some grumpy instructor who does not have much respect for anyone else.

November Seven

Interesting. I found that rates have gone up 200% to 300% out where I live relative to what they were back when I took my first (and last) 4hrs of flight instruction. I remember back when a C-172 wet was $47 and the Instructor rate was $30. Today, C-172s are going for $175 out where I live and Instructors are going for $100 or more. I also remember $27 152s wet. Things have really changed.


I am 100% certain (after reading him) that APC member JohnBurke would completely agree: What Will I Take For Granted?. Vintage stuff. I'm probably going to have a poster size print out of this pinned to my wall during my entire Flight Training Phase. If this guy were a CFI in my area, we'd get along real well.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that I want a 'conventional' instrumented cockpit during Private and Instrument Training. The problem that I'm running into is that I also want to transition into a Twin immediately after my Instrument, to commence with the Twin-Turbine Time Build Phase.

That Twin, will most likely be a Conquest II and it will be the preparation platform for the VLJ. Therefore, it needs to be Glass. That means I'll have to add an Extension Phase between Instrument and Multi-Engine that keeps me flying a 'conventional' instrumented aircraft for a longer period of time. How many hours, I don't know - but I'm guessing near the 300hr mark (PIC/IFR/IMC) before transition to the Conquest II.


FWIW, during my research, when I found scenarios like this, I respectfully thanked them for the tour, took the pamphlet and then walked. Personally, I want the equipment to be sound and the maintenance to be solid.

There are so many different types of "Instrument Approaches" out there. When I look at them all, the system engineering architect in my screams insanity at the top of my lungs. But, when I look at how US airspace has evolved over the years, then I can see how there would be such a jumble of instrument approach types. You listed just one, the RNAV approach.

I'd like to begin a thread that compares Instrument Approach Types to Required Equipment On-Board. Just to get an idea of how much real world experience one could obtain by flying a "conventionally instrumented" aircraft through their Instrument Rating. Not all instrument approaches require the same on-board equipment. In addition, it is my understanding that the FAA is constantly changing instrument approach types - taking away some and adding others. Not sure how a thread like that would go around here, however.


If I had such doubts, I would not train under their instruction - without question.


A dream killer? Personally, I don't tolerate dream killers, don't hang around them and try not to associate with them. Nothing gets done in this world without somebody first dreaming about it, then working hard/smart to make it a reality. Go for your CFI, CFII and find a way to make your corporate or regional dream a flat out reality.

You might find this interesting and/or somewhat helpful (not sure): NetJets Pilot Interview Profiles



In my life experience, quality often times cost more money. Just the way the world rotates on its axis. Definitely, not always true but often times it is. The question is, how much hunting do you want to do in order to drive costs down while maintaining higher quality instruction. The former 76 Captain coupled to the stated environment in which you found him and your initial feelings about him, seems like a better alternative.

I want to work with real people. I like honest people. I trust people who tell it like it is without sugar coating things. I like ethical people and people who have a moral backbone. I like working with competent people, smart people, wise people and those who like to get things done on time, on budget and on schedule. But, I can't sustain Dream Killers. That's just not who I am at the core. I would never have gotten to where I am in life and business today, had I allowed Dream Killers a place in my life.

You have to distinguish the difference between a Dream Killer with no purpose other than to kill your dream and that guy who is simply telling it like it is for your own good. My suggestion: Spend more time with both of them and let your gut inform you about their real intent.

Maybe the crusty guy was just having a bad day. People are allowed to have bad days. Maybe the up tempo guy was putting on a show, but underneath could care less how well you learn what he has to teach. When in doubt about character (because that's what we are truly talking about here), spend more time in their presence and observe the inner lining of their disposition, general attitude about life and their demeanor.


Was he just having a really bad day? And, was the other guy just a really good showman? Or, did you witness their true character on first contact? Maybe go back and offer to take them both out to lunch in exchange for some conversation about flight training.

I'm going through the exact same process that you are and the lunch thing actually works! I've weeded out two Instructors already and placed one on the finalist list already. The first Instructor came Gold Plated, Gold Rated and Gold Certified (according to the flight clubs website). He was truly a pompous, arrogant ***. However, his picture on the website looks very innocent and when you meet him for the first time, he seems pleasant. It is not until you spend time with him, that certain character traits are revealed. I simply paid the tab, shook hands and went on to the next "lunch."

I'm using the "lunch" thing as the icebreaker. I've already had one Instructor say that he did not have time for lunch. I said, thank you very much for your time and went home. I've had another Instructor say that he'd have to get in-touch with me about having lunch. I said, thank you very much for your time and went home. I'm investing the time, energy and effort up front to find the Instructor that is right for what I'm trying to accomplish.

flybub

^^ What a write up. Thank you! The lunch is a really good idea. May have to put that into play.

The older fella could certainly have had a bad day. Lord knows I've had my share. He did answer all my questions, but I was not expecting the way he did it because I have never experienced that kind of attitude from any instructor I've had in the past. I am going to go fly with him once and we'll go from there.

Advanced Instruction where I am is $50/hr, but this guy is $35. 172 in my area goes for roughly $110 wet and the club is at $80 wet. That's a pretty significant savings for an hour of flying, but a lot of it comes down to the guy sitting next to me. I've also just considered using the club to get my currency then get out of dodge.

Thanks again for the reply, certainly gave me a few other things to think about.

TiredSoul

Back to the ‘brain processing speed’.
I would recommend starting with ‘glass’ and not finishing with it.
You would be better off doing Private and IR in Glass Cockpit so you have a thorough understanding of the intricacies and how and when they can be a help or a hindrance.
You can fly a XC without the GPS you know. Using a paper chart in hand.
Learning the glass is a way faster and way more complex and expensive airplane is a learning curve which is much steeper then necessary.
I once laughed at a flightschool that installed G430’s like 15 years ago in a C152 till I realized the option of exposure to this type of equipment at $85/hr vs $160/hr and 90kts vs 150kts.
Again, you’re basing your plan on assumptions but you’re lacking the experience and exposure to make those assumptions.

You can teach the right way in glass or analogue and you can equally teach the wrong way in glass or analogue.

November Seven

I'll share with you my first flight story and the kind of Pilot I flew with on that day.

I have around 4 to 5 flight instruction hours that took place more than 20 years ago. That's all my logbook shows. I actually still have the logbook after all this time:






I kept this old unwritten Jeppesen paperback novel because I knew the dream would never die and that I'd be back at some point along the way. The reason for that belief has a lot to do with the story I'm about to tell you and the Pilot who made that story possible in my life.

I met a guy on my job one day, not knowing at the time that he was a pilot. He was about 15 years my senior in chronological age. He saw me reading a book about an F4 Phantom pilot named Randy "Duke" Cunningham, during my break and asked me about it. Over the course of the conversation as he ate his pizza, I found out he was a CFI, CFII and MEI. What he found out was that I was very interested in airplanes, too. One thing lead to another during the conversation and he invited me to fly out with him on his regular trip to Auburn and back that Saturday morning. Of course, I thought it was just going to be my first small airplane ride from the back seat somewhere. I had no idea what was coming next.

I arrived at the south gate and parked, he got there before me and we both went through on his security code. He was the first at the flying club that morning, opened the door, turned on some lights and did some paperwork in order to check out the airplane. I thought he'd be flying a Cessna of some kind. We walked out to a Tiger Grumman AA-5B. He asked me if I knew much about the Tiger, being an avid reader of airplane books. I told him, I've never seen one.

He removed the tie down chains and began his preflight. He said, "The very first thing I do when approaching the airplane is to look for anything suspicious lying around on the ground near it." He said, "Then I stand back away from the airplane to see if it still looks like an airplane should look." He was looking for low hanging fruit, obvious things that were broken or hanging off the airplane. He then went deeper into his preflight, explaining every little detail point-by-point. He then told me how to avoid trouble on the ramp walking too close to propellers or jet engine intakes and exhausts. He explained the concept of a hot magneto and how propellers should be respected at all times - remaining clear of the arch whenever possible. He gave a quick brief of the flight to come. The excitement level at this point was off the charts for me personally. But, I still had no clue was about to happen next.

We start to get into the airplane and I instinctively walk around to the right side. He said, "Where ya going! You're sitting left seat - this is your airplane today." He was a Psych Major in College and it was starting to show. He actually had me thinking it was literally "MY AIRPLANE" in just a nanosecond. So, I reversed course, walked around to the left wing and he showed me how to mount a Tiger Grumman from the wing. I thought I was 'Duke' Cunningham, for a moment there climbing on the wing and stepping into a 'cockpit' for the first time. Felt good. I had no idea what the heck I was doing, obviously. I was just following his instructions. Anyway, we get into the airplane, get the seats, seat belts, shoulder harnesses adjusted and locked.

I was ready to watch him do everything, while I sat back and enjoyed the ride.

He then reaches over hands me a plastic laminated card and says, "Start reading it. Its called a checklist." He said, "I know you are a fast reader, because I've seen you reading before, remember?" He said, "Let me know when you are finished." I'm pretty intuitive. I thought he was just going to quiz me as he went along doing his thing. I said, "Ok......... I'm done."

Information is one thing. Making it Knowledge and applying it is quite another.

He explained what ATIS was and showed me how to get it using the radios. He explained that he previously got a weather briefing, read through each line for the en route portion and concluded that flight was a "Go." He turns to me, as if he's serious and says, "Out of pure curiosity, exactly what would you need to accomplish in order to properly start the engine?" I looked like a deer caught in the headlights. He said, "Its in your hands. You just read it, remember?"

I said to myself: He wants me to literally start the airplane! You gotta be kidding me!

I looked at the sheet, found "Before Starting Engine" and just started reading the numbered list aloud. He stepped through every single number with me assuming I knew absolutely nothing about any of them - which was very true. This was my Introduction to the Tiger Grumman AA5B Checklist......... an actual Engine Start. I was stoked! And, I successfully started the engine, too. At this point, I'm thinking its over. My chores are over. I got to start an engine today (highly unexpected) and I'm going to enjoy a nice flight. What a wonderful day, right. Wrong. It was about to get way more interesting than that.

After engine warm-up at idle, he said, "I want you to get taxi clearance from ground control." He told me what to say and to simply repeat it after pressing the button that he pointed to. He had me practice it with him a few times prior. He gave me a cue when the radios were quiet and said, "Go." I pushed the button and got taxi clearance. He said, "Outstanding." I figured, surely I'm done at this stage. He then said, "I want you to taxi us to the run-up area."

At this point, I'm feeling really good and admittedly, kind of cocky. I will admit that - I will offer that freely. I should not have - but it was enthralling up to this point because I'm doing the work. I have no idea (yet - that will come later) what I'm doing. But, things are moving along nicely at this point. So, I am feeling my oats a little. He shows me how to use the rudder pedals properly to maneuver on the ground and how just a little power will get things moving. He manages Mixture Control the entire time (we never got into that). After showing me how to move the airplane on the ground a few times, he let's me taxi. We start off smoothly but the airplane starts to move right - I tap the left side and tack back to the taxi line. Basically, I was all over the taxiway, but got things a little smoother as we came to the run-up area where he had me turn into the wind, stop and set the parking brake. Of course, at this point, I don't know how far he's going to go in allowing me to do things - so I just wait for the next instruction.

Sure enough, right on cue. He has me go through the Before Take-Off checks. This time I was ready and jumped right into the numbers. Again, he took the time to step me through each item and required that I perform each task - quickly summarizing the reason behind each check along the way. Just like that, I had finished the Before Take-Off. He told me to re-read the Normal Take-Off checks again. I did. He told me to get clearance to taxi to the runway for departure. Just like before, he rehearsed everything with me then waited until the radios were clear enough and said, "Go." I called Tower and get clearance to taxi, but missed the "Taxi and Hold Short" instruction.

I started taxiing in the direction he pointed, trying to keep the airplane on the taxiway. He then explained "Taxi and Hold Short." We held short. Tower came back with clearance for take-off runway 27R. He told me where to look for traffic in-bound before taxiing out. He had me position the aircraft on the runway as best I could on center line. He said, "Step through the short list for me and call it out." I called it out. As I reached the end of the short list, he says that he has the airplane now. I let go. We head down the runway. I'm thinking to myself, man that was tough. But, it was still not over. Not by a long shot.

We climb out. He does what appears to be a lot of "pilot stuff" on the way up. I'm thinking, gee I've got a lot to learn. He handles the radios and that's where things got really strange for me. I was completely a fish out of water when it came to understanding what ATC was saying.

Once we got level, he went to work again assigning me unexpected tasks. He then took me through the concept of Pitch-Power-Trim. The first thing he showed me was how to trim the airplane for straight and level flight - keeping the nose/wings on the horizon and the ball centered. I was mere minutes in my first small airplane for the very first time and he had me engaged in figuring out Coordinated Flight. I trimmed straight and level, he would mess it up for me and then have me trim it again for straight and level until I got good at it. I could now keep an airplane level on the horizon, which was a very big question in my mind before taking off.

Pitch-Power-Trim was my very first in-flight lesson.

He then showed me Roll-Power-Trim. How to slowly roll the airplane into a turn while keeping the nose on the horizon and the ball centered. I distinctly remember the words: "Step on the ball if you need to. Ball goes right, step on it. Ball goes left, step on it." He had a knack for making things simple and clear, then having you do it yourself. When I screwed up, he said "I've got the airplane" - straightened things up and then told me to "try again until you get it right." Try again. Try again. Try again. Those words ring down through all these years. He had me climbing, descending, turning, adding and taking away power - all using Pitch-Power-Trim and Roll-Power-Trim.

He then demonstrated power-on stalls and then simulated power-off stalls. He then told me to replicate what he just did. So, I pulled power and continuously pulled back the nose slowly until the buffet/stall warning horn - lowered the nose to break the stall, added full power until the wings were flying again and slowly lifted the back to the horizon then pulled power. He congratulated me on my first successful stall recovery. I did a few more.

He then demonstrated Spin Recovery, but did so very carefully. He first walked through a two spin recovery, then a one spin recovery and finally a less than one spin recovery. He cycled back through each one (2, 1 and less than 1) a couple more times. The last two times he had me lightly touching the controls (yoke and rudder pedals). He called it "shadowing the controls," just to know what he was doing with them. He then set power and mixture had me try it. From straight and level, I kept increasing back pressure keeping the wings level, airspeed dropped and just before the buffet he had me put in left rudder. Sure enough, the airplane rolled into a left wing down spin. I immediately applied full opposite right rudder and pushed the nose down until the spin stopped. Releasing rudder pressure, adding power and slowing pulling wings level - I completed my first spin recovery. He would not let me do two spins. I practiced a few more one spin recoveries and then he gave me an altitude to climb to and a heading to fly which got us back on course.

I experienced a lot in just 30+ minutes heading out to Auburn. This guy was a great Teacher and he knew how to get you engaged in the actual learning process - to the point where you were teaching yourself and he was guiding, demonstrating and modeling for you. Though, I was not his official paid student at this point, the decision for me to make him my Instructor from that point was already made in my mind.

We landed in Auburn. He took care of his business and then walked me through the preflight outside the airplane. We got back in where I was once again given the checklist duties. With his supervision, I did the engine start, he walked me through making radio calls to Auburn Traffic (Auburn has no tower) and then I taxied to the runway. This time, along with the checklist, he had me do the actual take-off and climb. I was beside myself when he suggested it. He set the mixture. I held the brakes in while adding take-off power - then released the brakes. Airplane starts going forward and left. He explained earlier that I might need to tap the right brake to keep the airplane headed straight down the runway but that as airspeed increased, I would need to use right rudder instead of the brake. That indeed came true. He basically guided me on how much rudder to use the whole way until he said, "Ease straight back on the yoke until the nose comes off the ground." I did and it flew off the ground!

I let go of the rudder after initial climb by accident. He had me reapply right rudder and a little right aileron to keep things lined up and the ball centered. He then had me pitch until the climb indicator showed 750 feet per minute and then had me trim to maintain that climb speed. I said, this was just like Pitch-Power-Trim. He said, "Exactly." Nodding his head with a smile. He got back on the radios doing more complicated sounding "pilot stuff" and I just held the climb. He said, "They gave us a squawk I want you to enter." I had no idea, so I said, "How?" He said that he would dial the first two numbers and I would dial the last two. Again, modeling by example a new task. I got the squawk in and he had me push a button to identify.

After more complicated sounding "pilot stuff" on the radio, he said, "We have a heading and altitude." He gave me the heading first and I began slowly turning toward it while climbing. I said, "Like Roll-Power-Trim." He said, "Piece of cake." Of course, it was even easier because the Power was already in and the Trim was already done! I said, "Climb-outs are not too difficult." He said, "Now, you're learning." We kept climbing. He kept doing more complicated radio pilot stuff and I kept making heading changes as a result. Turning through a couple different headings while climbing - we finally reach 3,900 where I level off - reduce power and trim.

On the way back to KOAK, he kept focusing my attention on slow flight, steady descents and slow descending turns. After practicing these three things repeatedly we finally got closer to KOAK. We're cruising along when he tells me that I should fly the approach and he would take over the landing at the appropriate time. I said, "Just let me know what to do." He said, "You've already done it." I said, "When?" He said, "On the way over. That's what you've been practicing." That's what all the slow flight stuff was all about and now I understood why.

He handled the radios once again, gave me a heading to fly and told me to configure the airplane for a descent down to 1,200 feet. I looked at the altimeter and realized we had a little under 2,800 feet to descend. I immediately thought, Pitch-Power-Trim. I put the nose down, pulled power until the speed stabilized, trimmed until soft and just held it there. Somehow, I magically ended up right at a 500 foot per minute rate of descent - just as he was saying, "Good. I want you to maintain a 500 foot rate of descent." I'm still not sure if he was just boosting my confidence here or not.

My speed was a bit too high, but wings/nose were on the horizon with the ball in the middle. He then told me to pull power slightly and watch what happens. I thought the airplane would slow down by pulling power. It got even faster. He said, "To slow things down, start raising the nose slightly." I thought to myself, *that can't be right!* - but I did it and sure enough the airplane begins to slow without climbing! He said, "You just changed the pitch attitude to control speed. This is called Pitch-For-Speed. We'll talk about it later." Obviously, I thought this was Yoda territory. I was flying with Yoda!

Before we got to 1,200 feet, he told me to "Start putting nose and wings on the horizon again and do what's necessary to maintain your speed - check your ball." This was one of those moments where an Instructor demonstrates how golden they are. He did not tell what to do in order to maintain speed, he already taught me that. He told me to do what was necessary. This forces me to only consider what he had previously taught. It was a master stroke of teaching brilliance on his part. All I knew at that time was what he already instructed. So, I slightly pulled the nose back to the horizon with wings level and ball centered, then slowly applied power until the speed stabilized - because that's what was "necessary" at the time and the only thing I knew. I then re-trimmed the airplane. He said, "Piece of cake."

He reinforced what I had already learned through direct application inside a brand new task. Absolute, brilliance as a Teacher. This made it feel like I was learning something of value. Something that kept me in control of the airplane.

After he worked the radios again (more complex pilot chatter), he said that he wanted me to do the same thing from 1,200 feet down to 700 feet. More brilliance on his part because he set things up so that we were already flying the Base Leg. That meant I would only have one turn before entering Final. He kept things manageable for me while keeping things flowing in a plausible learning scenario as well. He told me to put in the flaps like I did on the way over practicing Slow Flight. Again, making concepts very easy to understand in the cockpit based on things I've already done.

I lowered flaps one notch, the nose would blip up slightly (been there done that). I slightly pushed the yoke through the blip. Speed started to bleed off - he said, "As speed bleeds off slowly, put the nose down until you reach a nice slow rate of descent - about 250 feet per minute - this will also stabilize your speed." More Pitch-Power-Trim used as a tool to control the airplane. Sure enough, 250 actually held at about 95kts.

Airplane started down nice and controlled while slowing slightly. We came down through 900 feet and he tells me to "Start your turn towards the runway - exactly with the same roll rate you did on the way over here - step on the ball easy if you have to. That's all you have to do."

I gently roll into a right hand turn trying to keep the same rate of descent. Ball goes left, I step on it easy. I roll out too far inside center line. He said, "You are too far right of the runway. How would you get left with what you know about flying right this moment?" More brilliance. Asking the student to figure things out based on what they already know. I said, "Roll-Pitch-Trim." He said, "You are already trimmed and pitched. Just roll. Do it!" I gently rolled left keeping the nose down - ball goes slightly right - I step a little on the ball. Airplane heads back to center line at about 750 feet. He showed me how to reference the engine cowling underneath the runway numbers and told me to keep the edge of the cowling tucked directly under the numbers all the way down using Pitch.

I flew the airplane down to 500 feet to an airspeed of about 75kts. He finally takes over and says, "My airplane now." He then talked me through everything he was doing to make the landing - namely how he shifted his focus out to the far end of the runway, monitoring the nose's height relative to the far end just before touch down. We taxied, parked and he walked me through the shut down again before letting me do it. I set the parking brake and flipped some switches. We pushed back the canopy on the Tiger Grumman and did another in-cockpit debrief on some of the things that were done on approach.

I basically, did not want to get out of the airplane that day. I could have slept there the entire week and been just fine doing so. We got back into the club and Yoda explained more details behind the things he was having me do in the air and that's when light bulbs began flaring off one after the other in my head. If he had merely told me these things on the ground, none of it would have made any sense. First he demonstrated. Then he had me replicate. Then he explained the why behind it all. That approach to Training and Teaching guaranteed that I would never forget and that I would understand the why behind the how.

That was my "Introductory" flight. I remember it vividly to this day, obviously. I will never forget it, most likely. I still laugh when I think about what I accomplished that day. Not because I was smart or because I was a natural pilot. I laugh now but because a Master Instructor showed that he could get a complete neophyte into the air and flying within minutes (literally minutes). From taxi, to take-off, to climb, to cruise and approach. All in just one hour of instruction. Who the heck does that other than a Master Instructor or Master Pilot. Some kind of Yoda Instructor, is what I had that day.

Will I find another Yoda this time around? I don't know. However, I sure hope we are both fortunate enough to land Instructors like that as we re-enter the world of GA! I later went on to do a handful of official flight instruction hours with that same individual as the log book above attests. Shortly thereafter, life happened, I could no longer justify the cost of flight instruction and had to bow out. But, like I said - I knew some day I would return like the Jedi. And, now I am back - much like you. 20 years later, but back nonetheless. Time to finally get this done.



No problem. May we both find a Yoda to instruct us. A good Instructor can get optimal performance out of their Student.

TiredSoul

There is not a single syllabus out there that has you doing stalls and spins, even a demo, in the first four lessons.
It’s absolutely counter productive.
First lesson should be mostly demo, mainly ‘Primary and Secondary’ effects of flight controls.
See, this is a syllabus:
http://flymall.org/docs/WIFApdf/WIFAsyllabus.pdf
Random one I grabbed off the internet but it shows the building block method of flight instruction.
You almost need to wipe your slate of a lot of preconceived notions and start over fresh.
If you start with an elaborate frame work of expectations, both from Training and from your own expected performance you’re going to encounter some issues.

flybub

That's a great story. There used to be one of these "Yoda's" in my area. He fell to Alzheimer's a couple years ago and I haven't seen him since. Great man and not only had a passion for teaching, but knew how to communicate with every personality.

I wish you the best of luck in your training!

November Seven

I'm glad you made this post. I've seen lots of posts on-line where new pilots are trying to hash this out for themselves. If this goes to much into the weeds, just let me know.

1) What's the reason behind going Glass right off the bat and will it make me a better pilot in the long run? Or, do I go Glass right from the start because that's what the future holds - there is no Conventional Cockpit anymore for VLJ aircraft? I guess if you wanted to order an aircraft with an all conventional cockpit, you could work with the OEM to do so. I'm not sure. I've never asked them.

2) Correct me if I'm wrong (I' here to learn), but the real debate seems to be around Glass Navigation vs Conventional Navigation. I don't see many debates on Glass EIS vs Conventional EIS, as just one example. People seem to be mostly debating wether integrating GPS/NAV/COMM in a single MFD for training purposes is the right thing to do - as opposed to training with individual Conventional instruments in those areas. The two big areas of debate seem to be the GPS/NAV interaction, if I'm not mistaken.

3) Do you know of any study that compares in-flight Glass Failure Rates with in-flight Conventional Failure Rates as well as what caused the failures?

4) What is it about Glass vs Conventional that causes so much division in GA these days when it comes to training focus?

For decades prior, pilots got along just fine without EFIS. I'm not opposed to technology. In fact, I love it. It is because I come from technology, that I ask these questions. I know how easily it can be faulted, broken into and/or compromised - presenting a nightmare for its End-Users.


Functional Glass Standardization

Has the FAA implemented any type of Front-End UI design standards for GA Glass used in the cockpit? I'm sure companies like Garmin and Avidyne need product distinction as a selling point. Nobology, Buttonology and now Tapology - the different ways to interact with the PFD/MFD units between manufacturers can cause issues for pilots - even after being "checked out" in a specific type of aircraft having unfamiliar EFIS.

Is the Input Component Integration behind these Glass systems fully standardized in General Aviation today? I'm trying to get at what could or would cause them to fail - as opposed to Conventional Instruments. Could it be the way in which the integration paths were designed, or who actually does the physical installation. Often times, we read reports where a high time pilot has an in-flight emergency or difficulty with their aircraft in-flight just minutes after getting their aircraft back from maintenance, a repair facility or an installation of some kind of new piece of equipment or component. I've read a number of reports, articles and stories like that over the years. Accidents After Maintenance, Repairs and/or New Equipment Installation. Someone should write a book on that subject - I think it would be an interesting read.

I would hallucinate that a Lancair, RV or Glasair Kit Builder would be infinitely more educated, skilled and knowledgeable about GA Avionics Components, than the average Private Pilot - or just about any Pilot, for that matter. The kit builder must design their panel from start to finish - which undoubtedly means digging into the minutia and specific details of the Input Component Hardware (and its associated wiring) on the back side of that neat looking panel they have slaved over for years in development. Maybe Kit Builders are a good source of information about how reliable both Conventional and Glass happen to be behind the scenes - or more to the point - behind the Panel itself.

I've heard that often times a Kit Builder will select Conventional over Glass simply as a function of cost. The issue of trust also seems to come up with kit building pilots when speaking to them about their preference for Conventional over Glass.

My decision to ultimately go with the CJ4 places Collins Proline 21 in the cockpit. A decision to go with the Phenom 300 places Garmin G3000 in the cockpit. A decision to wait and go with the PC-24 places Honeywell Primus Apex into the cockpit. Three (3) entirely different approaches to engineering an integrated cockpit for the single pilot. The last time I checked, there was no standard establish for the Front-End UI of such fully integrated systems. So, you cannot learn one system, then port skills over into another system with the same Front-End experience. They all operate differently from a pure UI standpoint, yet they allegedly deliver similar or same results: GPS/NAV/COMM, AP integration, etc.. Product distinction, yes. Consistency in the cockpit, no.


Summary

In light of all this, how does training in an environment having an older GNS 430W and GNS 530W, or the now outdated G500 and G600, or the current G1000, or G2000 help matters when Garmin is capable making shifts in their core product line faster than a bullet train?

If I train Conventionally from Private through Instrument, grind out good quality Instrument Time in a Conventional Single-Engine up to about 350 hours PIC/IFR/IMC, then go buy a Conquest II in order to obtain the best that Garmin has to offer, I'd still have to AML retrofit that Cessna 441 with Dual Garmin G600 TXi (PFD) and Dual Garmin GTN 750 (MFD). That would be the closest you could bring a Conquest II towards either VLJ on my list.

So, here we have the crux of the matter. Dual G600TXi/GTN750 as the EFIS is nothing like Proline 21 EFIS, and neither of those is like Primus Apex EFIS. It is however, a close cousin to Garmin G3000, which puts the Phenom 300 in the most advantageous position - as it probably provides the easiest transition path on a pure Avionics basis alone. Unfortunately, neither Collins nor Honeywell, produce anything for this end of the spectrum in General Aviation. Thus, there is no like minded "transition" path in avionics from Light Aircraft to VLJ given those OEMs.



I'm trying to follow you here. If that XC in an EFIS cockpit, wouldn't there need to be room on the Panel for the appropriate set of Conventional Instruments in order to do the basic Attitude Instrument Flying stuff? Wouldn't you at least need Instruments for Performance/Control/Navigation:

- Airspeed
- Attitude
- Altitude
- Heading
- Vertical Speed
- VOR

If that is the case and you have a Glass cockpit but elect to not use the GPS in an attempt to sharpen your Conventional skills, don't you need the Panel real estate to mount those instruments and wouldn't that eliminate the necessary real estate for the larger EFIS panels? As I say, I'm trying to follow you.


Yep. I get what you are saying about "speed" and how it is probably better to have exposure to "Glass" at a slower rate where things don't happen as fast. That's understood. But, that's a different question than the one I'm asking. I'm asking about the Model itself, as opposed to how the Model functions. The Model of training under Conventional, as opposed to the Model of training under Glass and which one affords the student the ability to become a better pilot as a result. Does that differential exist?

If there is no difference at all, then certainly getting early exposure to something that approximates what I'll encounter in the VLJ ultimately, probably makes much more sense. However, if there is a differentiation in the two Models of training, then I need to consider those differences and understand what the distinctions look like and how they will affect me down range in the VLJ, if at all.


Great post! Thanks again for the input.

November Seven

Sorry to hear about the degradation in his health. Yoda's are good guys. Thanks and all the best on your journey as well.

November Seven

Finally found a quality Flight Instructor.

I was somewhat surprised to find him so quickly. I honestly thought this was going to take a long while given my training requirements, but the search is finally over.

I just found a former Airline Pilot, current Primary Flight Instructor and former UPRT Instructor. He's semi-retired and periodically flies a Citation V on a Single Pilot Waiver for a private individual - not too far from where I live, ironically. He flies the Citation mostly weekends, if and when he does and has the bulk of the week free right now as a matter of fact.

His attitude about life in general is authentically positive. He's in his mid 60s, works out regularly and seems to be in great shape for his age. He seems like a pleasure to be around long-term, easy to talk with, non-assumptive, a good active and engaged listener, still loves to fly and seems to be a natural teacher. Apparently, he's not in it for the money. He Teaches because he loves flying and enjoys sharing his knowledge with others who love flying.

Strangely, I met him pulling his aircraft out of his hanger this weekend, after being referred to him from a Helicopter Flight Instructor I was having a conversation with at a local airport about my research. Turns out that individual was also a student of his some years back. A referral that turned out very good indeed.

When we approached him, he was clearly about to go flying. It was just after 2pm or so. I got introduced and by 4pm, we were still standing by his airplane talking. I started to feel a bit hawkish on his personal time and told him so, but he said it was no problem and that he'd had a conversation like ours before with another individual looking to get into jets. So, he could appreciate where I was coming from.

During our two hour long conversation standing next to his G58, l felt comfortable enough letting him know in-person what my plans were and asking him for his advice. I asked him straight out about going from zero to VLJ and whether or not it could be done. He said: "Of course, it can be done. More pilots are doing it now than ever before." I told him about my conceptual outline for a Training & Time Building program that took the best components from Part 61 and Part 141, then asked for his opinion. That's when he backed up the truck and began to literally unloaded on me. I learned more from him in two hours than I have in 4 weeks of being online, hands down.

A few things about his advice. He said that based on what I was trying to accomplish and that given money for training was not a factor, he liked the idea of me doing:

- Independent Ground School w/passed Written Exam before actual flight instruction began. Either in a conventional classroom setting environment, or through a good self-pace study program (he likes either Jeppesen or Sporty's). However, he thinks there needs to be a very firm and specific time table for completion once started. He makes himself available for Ground School phone consultation once per week until course completion. He does not recommend simultaneous Ground and Flight instruction for a number of different reasons that he explained to me, all of which now make a ton of sense after he explained why.

- A full-time syllabus driven VFR Private Pilot Flight Training schedule Mon-Fri. Up to 1 hour ground before flight, 2 hour flight core instruction and Up to 1 hour ground after flight. Totaling 4 hours instruction per day, plus 2-3 hours text based self-study and/or simulator self-study. Revisiting Ground School subject matter during daily Flight Instruction given. Pass Oral/Flight. Immediately, plan and fly 10 unique VFR cross countries each 2-3 hours in duration round trip with 5 simulated missed approaches to planned alternates and 15 additional VFR night landings locally. Than take his Stage Check Ride, which he promises would be far more difficult than what the DPE gave. He would use that check ride to bring out issues that I need to clean up before Instrument Training began. He said, he would initiate Instrument Training until I cleaned up any issues that remained.

- A full-time syllabus driven IFR Flight Training schedule Mon-Fri. Up to 1 hour ground before flight, 2 hour flight core instruction and Up to 1 hour ground after flight. Basically, the exact same time based structure the Private took.

He outlines a lot more than what I'm going to spend my time covering here. This was basically the beginning of what he thought would be the right approach to get me ready. His ideas on Instrument Training, I found very interesting and I like his ideas on integrating Multi-Engine Training and Instrument Training.

Lastly, I was both surprised and delighted at the fact that he actually likes my idea of using a Twin Turboprop as the baseline foundation for getting VLJ prepared and he thought the idea I had for Scheduling unique and individual Flight Plans in a routine Part 135 simulated fashion was good. He said that such a structured approach would yield the Time as PIC that I needed, but would also continue expanding the challenges through each new flight plan filed. He agrees that high density altitude airport experience is important, mountain flying experience is seen as important to him and good amount of night time landings with increasing experience at unfamiliar airports during high traffic periods were all good ideas. So, a fair amount of my research was validated.

He said, he would modify his syllabus to match my needs - but that some of the changes would not come until the Multi-Engine Training, where he'd literally be creating a new syllabus matched to the Conquest II. He said, the best options is to get a Conquest II wither with Glass already installed, or be willing to have it installed. I told him that's no problem.

So, I have to get on that Conquest II, right now. There's a lot involved in that and the time it will take to get the cockpit set-up the way we need will also take time. That process can be running while the Private and Instrument training is underway, so that the Twin is ready when its time to make a move on the Multi-Engine Training. This brings buying a Conquest II immediately into focus and my very next task.

I love it when good plan starts to come together and I especially love it when when working with quality people. This guy is really good people. I really think I just lucked out on finding him. Just good timing, I guess.

That's it for me around here. Time to go hunt down a 441 (finally)!

Here's to those who never quit on their dreams. Cheers!