Flyhayes

Quite frankly you are overthinking things. And might end up becoming a "difficult" student if you interject all the information you have "learned" prior to even starting your flight training into your flight training. I understand that you want to do it right, but you are taking it to a stratospheric level that might work against you in the long run.

You're going to find that different Flight Instructors take different approaches in how they teach. And often times there are several ways to skin a cat.
The MOST important part of your flight training is finding an Instructor that you work well with. The student/instructor relationship is a very important one and is the cause why the majority of students quit. Finding an instructor that you gel with should be your priority. Everything else will fall into place once you commence your training.

November Seven

Great advice. Fortunately, I have the advantage of having a little over 4 hours of previous flight instruction memories 20 years ago. That means, I remember clearly struggling with exactly what Gregory M. Penglis, predicted and wrote about in his book - before I took my first official lesson. After reading his book, contrasting it with Barry Schiff's written authority on the subject, I found that they both agree as to what causes many Student pilots trouble early on.

Both of them conclude that failure to learn Positive Control of the aircraft at the outset of flight training is at the heart of most problems a Student faces later in their training. This is backed-up by any number of Student Pilots taking videos of their DPE check-ride, where they struggle with Positive Control Inputs.

If those two guys are writing about it, it must be important. I just need to make sure my CFI teaches and instructs from the point of view that Positive Control is job one after training begins. If I'm struggling controlling the aircraft because the fundamentals of Input/Output have not been explained, or were rushed through, or were partially explained or (forbid) were explained in error by the CFI, then going forward with that training seems pointless to me.

Pitch/Power/Trim. Power/Pitch/Trim. Roll/Pitch/Power/Trim. IF those things aren't honed from the start, how can I maintain a Normal Flight Attitude while changing radio frequencies, entering squawk codes, adding a way point to the GPS, troubleshooting a problem, reviewing an approach plate or any number of task that steals attention away from actually controlling the airplane. I understand the Autopilot is used quite frequently to handle the matter of Normal Flight Attitude. But, do I really want to become so AP dependent that I've lost touch with how to maintain proper attitude by hand.

Or, what about when the AP fails and IMC or MVFR comes into the picture. My CFI won't be there to bail me out. However, if that Instructor has worked with me to hone those skills from day one, then maintaining a Normal Flight Attitude would have been learned as second nature - unlike that video I just posted of a Student Pilot taking his DPE check-ride with the airplane literally all over the sky. Yet, the DPE passed him.


Understood. Makes sense. Approaching the same subject matter differently, I get. Not approaching the same subject matter at all, I don't get. If you watched the video, the Student was surprised by the DPE's requirement that he fly a Forward Slip on the approach to landing. The DPE's been doing that for 30 years. So, it looks to me as if the Student's CFI either did not cover that subject matter with his Student, or did cover it with the Student and he simply forgot during the check-ride, or the CFI covered the subject but did not get confirmation from the Student that he fully understood it and could executed it when required to do.

People tell me that I'm over thinking things. All I'm doing is observing the evidence of the disconnect between Flight Training Students, their CFI's Instruction and the DPE's ultimate requirement. I'm seeing disconnect and I wonder why, how and when that disconnect happened and how I can prevent such disconnect (if at all possible) in my own Training. That's why I ask so many questions and that's why I do so much pre-Flight Training Homework.

Not being clear about how to use a VOR to fly to a Station the DPE asked you about three (3) times before you reply positively, has got to be representative of a CFI-to-Student disconnect during training and prior to the check-ride. If that's over thinking it, then I should probably continue to over think it, until I understand why and how such disconnects take place in the Training Environment and then persist all the into the DPE check-ride. I would think that somewhere during training the CFI would have caught that deficiency and helped the Student correct it before the check-ride took place.

Either the Student did not come prepared because he lacked proper drive and focus, or the CFI failed to get his Student prepared before the check-ride. The CFI was not available for comment in the video, did not make an appearance and therefore, we will never know. What we do know is that this Student seemed unprepared in too many areas of the check-ride.


That's really good advice and well stated. And, that's all I'm trying to do.

November Seven

You have not read enough. I initiated flight training a long time ago and did not finish. Fundamentals were missed from the very beginning that I did not learn about until much later. So, I have experience failing to properly control the aircraft because there was zero instruction on how to do that. I had to learn it from reading former Airline Pilots with over 20,000 hours of flight time and something close to 300 Type Ratings.

So, my statements are based on those experts with demonstrated experience (they wrote books, they made their credentials public). Furthermore, I'm asking questions not making final conclusions. Second, that fact that someone posted a video on YouTube, does not disqualify the substance of the video. I'm not making an appeal to assumed credibility problems with YouTube. I'm looking at a Student whose CFI signed off on his taking a DPE check-ride.

I'm witnessing a 30 year DPE, pass a Student who clearly had issues with some fundamental control and knowledge problems - and I'm wondering why and how that happened and whether or not that same kind of thing could possibly happen to me.

That's the whole point. I'm trying to make sure I don't. However, there is plenty of evidence that I have researched that shows Student's who stop their flight training precisely because of CFI/Student relationship issues and/or because they've floated from Instructor to Instructor, becoming disillusioned with the System of Flight Training as they make little to no progress - as the CFI builds time on their dime.


Yes, indeed. I would not knowingly put important things in the hands of anyone incompetent or who lacked the same values that I have on certain critically vital issues. My Doctor, was academically stripped searched before I visited him and he appreciated every minute of it. In fact, he constantly tells me that he wishes all of his patients were as engaged in their healthcare as I was engaged in mine.

I took care of my Mother for nine (9) years as she was dying from complications of a disease that caused her to need kidney dialysis three (3) times a week. She had seven (7) Doctors total and each one of them knew me by first name because I constantly followed-up with them about efficacy of treatment plans. So much so, that her cardiologist said that had I not been the lead on my Mother's healthcare, that she would have more than likely not made it the final nine (9) years of her life.

As a direct result, my Mother got the absolutely best healthcare available, as I would not tolerate anything less for her. I learned more about endocrinology, neurology, nephrology, cardiology, gastroenterology and metabolism than I probably ever would have over the same nine (9) years. How else would it be remotely possible to sit with Doctors and have conversations with them about the healthcare of your Mother, unless you took the time to learn something about her conditions (plural). I have always taken the approach that I am principally responsible for my healthcare.

I take my Doctor's advise not blindly, but because I understand conceptually why the Doctor prescribes a certain course of treatment. I understand it, because I've taken the time to studied the concepts my Doctor tells me are important. Most things come down to proper Diet and Exercise. Get those two things right and you can eliminate a lot of Doctor's office visits. You will find Human Biology and Plant Biology to be two (2) very interesting subjects once you engage them. You don't need to be a Doctor in order to do that. You just need to care about your Education.

I'd be no different as a Student Pilot. I would care about my Education and that my CFI is a quality Teacher, not merely an Instructor. That's why I ask such questions and do so much homework before jumping into a full-blown Training Environment. An environment which does not exist at present and which will need to be designed, built and custom tailored to my needs. That kind of CFI is going to be a rare bird indeed. In return, my CFI (when I select them) gets probably the most prepared per lesson, focused, committed, ready to learn and most flexible Student they've ever had in their career.

So, yes. I believe in Homework. Lots of it. I know that's a sin these days, but hey - at least I'm honest about it.

A quality education does not happen by accident or in a vacuum. The Student has to be willing to pay the price, regardless of the subject matter. I believe in being a Prepared Student. I've never wandered into a lecture hall, or a class room unprepared. I've always purchased and read the text at least a year in advance before taking any class, whenever possible in college. So, everything I was studying in lecture or lab, was always in review for me. I have not walked into a class room cold since Junior High School. I'm not going to start now.

USMCFLYR

Well all of that proves my point!

Anybody else have any any further questions

galaxy flyer

N7,

Have you considered buying a year of USAF UPT? Might be cheaper.

GF

JohnBurke

I'd be very interested in meeting a 20,000 hour pilot with 300 type ratings. Clay Lacy has 32, I believe, and he's a type rating collector.

It's unfortunate when a poster comes here who is unable to tell the truth, but fortunate that such lies quickly reveal them. I suspect a banning isn't far off.

TiredSoul

Flight instruction and Airline pilot are two completely different universes.
Being an Airline pilot doesn’t garantee you’re a good GA instructor by any stretch of the imagination.
And that’s all I gotta say about that.

November Seven

Shucks, if only it were available.

November Seven

Its Types of Aircraft flown, not Type Ratings. That was my typo. However, your penchant for jumping to conclusions is legendary around here and I wonder why or how that has not gotten you banned, yet.

magoo6541

I don't think there's any real benefit with choosing one over the other. When transitioning from a 6-pack to TAA, theres going to be a learning curve. Theres going to be a learning curve going the other way as well. The only time I would recommend one over the other is if you know for a fact that you're going to be exclusively flying something specific after getting your license. IE, you're going to buy a G1000 equipped plane, use a G1000 for training.

On a couple of occasions, a plane would be down for maintenance so the student would reserve one of the G1000 equipped planes. Just doing basic maneuvers was a challenge because instead of looking outside the plane, the student was initially 100% focused on those big screens presenting all that information in a new way.