Head-in-the-clouds
05-23-2018, 04:25 PM
#21
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by FlightLevel350
I agree, if you’re dedicated and self motivated why would you need so much ground school? I myself work best by sitting in a room hitting the books hard followed by some hands on teaching on the actual aircraft. This is where the value of a great instructor truly shines.
In life I’ve found that self reliance is one of the best traits found in any person. Read the books and if a section of the book confuses you, then seek out the answer. In a world of google and a ton of YouTube videos, you’re bound to find the answer and when you do, it’ll be yours forever since it wasn’t so easily handed out.
Yet I do suspect that there are some people that work best with many hours of ground training. To each their own.
I don’t mind paying $80 or $100 an hour for a great flight instructor, but when I see that many hours of ground instruction, I’m always a litttle skeptical. Especially when I don’t see it as an optional thing, I have been looking through some flight schools in my area and do notice that many of them do this. To each their own, I’m sure it works for some. Just know that all that ground instruction as shown above amounts to about 7k. Which is money that can be put towards your CFI ratings.
Furthermore, that is why places like ATP are such a joke. They charge nearly double the price quote shown above yet provide zero ground school. Which like I said is fine, but for nearly 90k...it’s not that fine.
Lastly, my comments here are guided towards a self starter who like most of us wants to finish their training at the most afordable price possible. Like I said, there are people who could greatly benefit from plenty of one on one ground instruction and there are those to whom ATP works great for. Different strokes for different folks.
In life I’ve found that self reliance is one of the best traits found in any person. Read the books and if a section of the book confuses you, then seek out the answer. In a world of google and a ton of YouTube videos, you’re bound to find the answer and when you do, it’ll be yours forever since it wasn’t so easily handed out.
Yet I do suspect that there are some people that work best with many hours of ground training. To each their own.
I don’t mind paying $80 or $100 an hour for a great flight instructor, but when I see that many hours of ground instruction, I’m always a litttle skeptical. Especially when I don’t see it as an optional thing, I have been looking through some flight schools in my area and do notice that many of them do this. To each their own, I’m sure it works for some. Just know that all that ground instruction as shown above amounts to about 7k. Which is money that can be put towards your CFI ratings.
Furthermore, that is why places like ATP are such a joke. They charge nearly double the price quote shown above yet provide zero ground school. Which like I said is fine, but for nearly 90k...it’s not that fine.
Lastly, my comments here are guided towards a self starter who like most of us wants to finish their training at the most afordable price possible. Like I said, there are people who could greatly benefit from plenty of one on one ground instruction and there are those to whom ATP works great for. Different strokes for different folks.
05-23-2018, 05:45 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: Retired NJA & AA
Posts: 1,912
Thanks for posting the cost info. I had no idea it was that cheap, I've always heard $100K to Commercial/Multi/Inst.
I started taking lessons with Florida Air Guard Aero Club in 1975. They had 1965 models Cherokee 160 and 180. They got their gas thru military channels and paid no tax on it and the F-106 mechanics who were A&P's did the work for reduced flying rates. With all that I paid a whole $8/hour WET for the 160, $9 for the 180. My CFI was an F-106 Sim Tech Master Sargent. He charged all of $5 per hour. Normal rental rates for a Skyhawk were probably around $35/hr in 1975. When I got my PPL in 1976 my Dad was like "It cost you the same amount to get your PPL in 1976 as it cost me back in 1948!!"
Later I did some flying out of the FBO at TLH, me and a Navy ROTC guy re-started the FSU Flying Club and Seminole Flying Team. An IFR Skyhawk was $39/hour in the late 70's. After graduation I went to USAF Pilot Training so lost track of what civilian time cost. Didn't do any more civilian time except for my ATP ride in 1988.
I started taking lessons with Florida Air Guard Aero Club in 1975. They had 1965 models Cherokee 160 and 180. They got their gas thru military channels and paid no tax on it and the F-106 mechanics who were A&P's did the work for reduced flying rates. With all that I paid a whole $8/hour WET for the 160, $9 for the 180. My CFI was an F-106 Sim Tech Master Sargent. He charged all of $5 per hour. Normal rental rates for a Skyhawk were probably around $35/hr in 1975. When I got my PPL in 1976 my Dad was like "It cost you the same amount to get your PPL in 1976 as it cost me back in 1948!!"
Later I did some flying out of the FBO at TLH, me and a Navy ROTC guy re-started the FSU Flying Club and Seminole Flying Team. An IFR Skyhawk was $39/hour in the late 70's. After graduation I went to USAF Pilot Training so lost track of what civilian time cost. Didn't do any more civilian time except for my ATP ride in 1988.
05-23-2018, 07:59 PM
#23
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,453
Originally Posted by CAPILOTAIN
These numbers are based on 10 years of full-time teaching and over 6000 dual given. I agree that they are slightly high, but the average student will typically need to be spoonfed a lot of material. Most people don't have the drive to push themselves. These numbers could be split in half if the student prepares correctly, but most don't. Also, these numbers are based on flying out of a highly populated area which increases both the need for ground and flight training...and the hold short you're number 8 for departure costs. Another thing is that the downside to having so much teaching experience is that I have a lot to teach :-). You truly get what you pay for.
In my experience, CFIs with ONLY CFI experience, no matter how much of it, don't have much to teach. Real experience comes from flying in the system, for real. (this wasn't aimed at you, just a general observation).
05-23-2018, 08:16 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 2,296
Originally Posted by dera
I've paid 2.5 hours of ground from 0 to CP. That was my oral prep for my checkrides and oral part of my complex endorsement. So I'd say these numbers could be slashed to 10th _if_ the student prepares correctly. I can only imagine how many don't. It's a lot of work.
In my experience, CFIs with ONLY CFI experience, no matter how much of it, don't have much to teach. Real experience comes from flying in the system, for real. (this wasn't aimed at you, just a general observation).
In my experience, CFIs with ONLY CFI experience, no matter how much of it, don't have much to teach. Real experience comes from flying in the system, for real. (this wasn't aimed at you, just a general observation).
05-23-2018, 08:50 PM
#25
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by dera
I've paid 2.5 hours of ground from 0 to CP. That was my oral prep for my checkrides and oral part of my complex endorsement. So I'd say these numbers could be slashed to 10th _if_ the student prepares correctly. I can only imagine how many don't. It's a lot of work.
In my experience, CFIs with ONLY CFI experience, no matter how much of it, don't have much to teach. Real experience comes from flying in the system, for real. (this wasn't aimed at you, just a general observation).
In my experience, CFIs with ONLY CFI experience, no matter how much of it, don't have much to teach. Real experience comes from flying in the system, for real. (this wasn't aimed at you, just a general observation).
06-01-2018, 11:51 AM
#26
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
Not a granny, but an Uncle. The only catch is a service obligation of several years. 
Not sure how realistic it is for the OP, but for anyone in a tough spot like this, consider signing up for four years in a career field that doesn't deploy as frequently as others so you can use Tuition Assistance to knock out general B.S. education courses while serving (toward a Restricted ATP approved degree). Then upon separating at four years use the GI Bill to fast-track the remaining flight courses and degree requirements for the 1,000 hour R-ATP.
Four years sounds like a lot, but you'll shave off almost a year of flight instructing simply by getting the R-ATP and you won't have all those loans to pay back.
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