Head-in-the-clouds
 

Hi my fellow cloud surfers

I’m a FA for a regional currently. I live near MCO, and am based out of DCA the commute is a blessing. Recently I was granted GLT (part-time), after recently purchasing the ASA Private Pilot Kit and completing my first discovery flight— I mustard up the courage to ask my grandmother to co-sign on my student loan. On May 1 at 8:55pm she said “no”. Then followed up with “you should of thought about that before having Cordell” (my 5 year old son). I asked “How do you expect me to expidite the process of moving out when I can’t afford to?” Her response “Go apply for one of those government funded houses and get a stay-at-home job working from a computer.” I am near death — I can barley breath since hearing this from someone who was once proud that I am (yes, still at 30 years old) the only grand child who achieved a BS degree (in Event Management/Hospitality from UCF).

I am planning to pay for my private pilot license out of pocket for $4,220 from Air America Flight Center in Daytona Beach. Is there any recommendations from you all? I still believe I can achieve my dream, I am just praying that this is possible within 3 years maximum.

Help. xo

Well, if you can "Mustard" up the courage to ask for a loan, keep in mind that you're going to have to play a lot of "Ketchup" at this point in your life.

Dude....

(Filler)

Muahahaha...


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Good luck man, I would say that 4,220 sounds a little on the low side. Do you have any prior flight training?

All the best. Yes, you would ‘relish’ the career change. Keep evaluating options, including without Granny.

I agree. I have one discovery flight under my belt.

AAFC doesn't do "courses", their course prices are just totaled numbers from their rental feet - you will pay for the plane per hour, and CFI by the hour. Total cost depends on how much time you need dual/solo. $4220 is impossible.

You need to buy 4 10hr blocks of the cheapest plane they have, that's $3560 and just so you know, they only have one plane at that rate, and it flies a lot.
Then you need to pay your CFI, they are independent contractors and set their own fees. Minimum realistic CFI time is 30 hours, average is 40 per hour (some charge 50, some 60 there), that's $1200. Now you're at $4760. DPEs start at $450 for private, plus 2 hours of plane rental. That's $700. Now we are at $5460. Written test is just under $200, $5700 total now. Medical exam, call it a few hundred. You are now at $6000, give or take a few.

And this is with the absolute bare minimum hours and instruction. At KDAB especially with E-R in season, you will NOT get it done at 40 hours unless you are extremely lucky, somewhat talented, and work full time at this project. You'll waste countless hours waiting in line to do patternwork. And to get this price, you need to have almost exclusive access to the only airplane that you can get for this rate at AAFC.

Be realistic when you start it, you'll need 7000-8000 to be comfortable at minimum hours, and if you have a few setbacks, that won't be enough.

Good luck. You can do it, just be realistic with your goals and budget.

Honestly, you're more likely to spend $10-12k for a PPL if you're also working full time, and have a kid. You can assume that you'll cancel a good 1/3 of your flights for weather/illness, etc. The more time you spend between flights, the more flight hours you'll need to gain the skills necessary...although the extra flight time does count towards your CPL.

Unless you go into the service, the last estimate I saw was $80,000-$100,000 to get to the point that you can work as a CFI and start making a little money. Not much, but a little.

I don't want to crush your dreams, but it's important to understand what you're getting into before you invest a lot of money in this career. There's not much money in aviation for a pretty long time. You have to really love it for it to be worth it, otherwise it's just not a good investment.

Your Grandma was smart to not co-sign with you. You are not in a position to pursue this. I couldn’t tell if you just want your private certificate or to change careers, but it doesn’t matter. You can’t afford either right now.

Now, with that said, you can do it eventually. Start by getting a new job. Realize that if you’re making $25 an hour as an FA, that’s really the equivalent of $9 an hour when you factor in the down time. Factor in the commute, and it’s about $5 an hour. So get a local job paying $20 an hour and you’d be way ahead. You have to take a long view on this. It’s not “I have to do this in 3 years or else all hope is lost”. It’s “I want to do this in 6 years (a more realistic number for you), how to I get from here to there?”

Also, this is literally the worst way to expedite moving out, so not really a good plan for that. Getting a local job that pays about the same as you FA job (even slightly less) is the best way to expedite moving out.

Most successful pilots have granny's that gift them enough for a bachelors degree, pilot training through CFI, and all expenses until they get to a major.

Just do it...itll all be worth it when you make it to the airlines and you get that first 11h30m overnite at the holiday inn-highway in kmdt.

Head in the clouds.....feet on a barstool.

GF

Not a granny, but an Uncle. The only catch is a service obligation of several years. ;)

Why the 3 yr minimum?

P.s. I heard lots of no’s. Could not get a co-signed. The ones who wanted to co-sign had bad Credit. So I paid as I went.

If it’s truly a dream and not just words, you will not give up no matter your age or time frame. Be realistic, give yourself time, Save, Have a Budget, Stick to it. You can’t have fun and eat out and go for ur dreams, takes a little sacrifice (unless your norms rich, or will family house to take out a loan on).

Some commuter/regionals have employee programs where they pay for your ratings. Piedmont, Envoy Air has one.

Keep doing ur research, keep studying, be determined and stay focus and on a budget/spending track, keep dreaming, and keep taking care of your family.You will achieve your goals. If ur able, also try Uber and Lift part time to save money for flying. Save a good amount to nearly finish before you get started. Study and take practice written exams & get your Medical done before you get started.

You have a few options, and Dera is right about those numbers. Often times schools that aren't all-inclusive like ATP, a quick but expensive choice, don't truly tell you what each aspect costs and they final bill ends up MUCH higher than you expected(check rides, written exams, the meter running while sitting on the ground, etc). As a regional FA I assume you are still on reserve, be it SCR, LCR, HRV, or if your lucky a R1. Your biggest obstacles are going to be Money and Time.

That being said, this is absolutely possible for you to pursue your dream of flying. There are so many ways to get to your end game in this industry. You should start by taking all this advice, mine included, with a grain of salt. We've all had drastically different experiences.

So, for the Money aspect.
I flew in Daytona. That airport is very busy due to many flight schools in the area, including ERAU and ATP. Adding on the airline traffic, private jets, and other general aviation, you may be spending hundreds of dollars to just sit on the ground. When I say sit on the ground, if you are unsure of what I mean, flight school planes usually have a Meter (timer) for the aircraft that usually starts ticking by tenths of an hour (0.1 hrs = 6 minutes) as soon as the engine is on. It may take you 0.2 hrs to get from the ramp into the air on a calm sunday, or it may take 0.6 hrs (36 minutes) on a busy tuesday afternoon when there are a lot of departures and other students flying from multiple flight schools. You may take 0.1 or 0.2 hrs to get back to the ramp after landing.
These numbers are just estimates (with 0.6 being an unusually high, but possible wait time)but they are realistic in busy airports including KDAB, so anyone can save their comments for after we try to give this nice lady some honest advice.
Therefore, if you expected to fly for 1.0 hrs, you may truly only get 0.6 hrs of flight time. Or end up paying for 1.5 hrs of flight time to feel like your actually got to practice the stuff you intended to, because of the start up, taxi, take off at the beginning, and the landing and taxi back to ramp at the end. Most people wished they understood this part of training before they went into it.

I would, again, agree with Dera where it may cost closer to $7,000-$10,000 with a lot of variables in there (other people may have seen cheaper and that is great, I just don't have experience with that). One of the largest is how often you are able to study and to fly.

Which brings me to Time. FA's are usually very busy. I do not know your schedule or if you hold a R1 or you sit SCR in DCA 5 days a week. The biggest factor I've seen with my students (of all ages and backgrounds) is the lack of studying and not flying often enough. Sometimes they think they understand the subject better than they truly do. Sometimes they have to go home for a week to be with their family for a childs birthday party, holidays, etc. The point is, we all have personal lives and before we started flying, we all had more or less normal jobs. It is difficult to balance them. But, if your sitting SCR for 5 days in DCA, you can sit in the crew room and read some Private Pilot stuff for an hour. Its kind of like working out. Most of us hate doing it and make excuses, but realistically theres always time for a 30 minute session regardless of how tired we are. And thats not to say you wouldn't study, its just a common problem I both had when I was in training and I see with my students.

The more important factor will be how often do you fly. If you can fly 2x a week, that would be great. Everything is fresh or at most a few days old. If you only fly 2x a month, your maneuvers and landings will take longer to learn and thus cost more money to fly more until you get them down. Its common sense that certain skills are perishable, but often times people believe their skills are retained longer than they really are until they are tested on them. Only then do they realize they may need to work more on something they thought they mastered.

Now after all of that, your age is not a factor at all. Your family may make it difficult sometimes to fly because of obligations. Your job may make it difficult to fly. However, you are right in the center of aviation. Walk up to a young CA or FO and ask them what they know about it. Where did they train, were they CFI's, do they know any good schools or individual instructors around the area? Ask the old ones too but the young ones have the most recent experience.

YES you can definitely do this well within 3 years. You will probably have to rethink your budget as previously stated, but it is possible as long as you commit to it and do not make excuses. It'll be difficult at times but its very rewarding. The aviation community is the tightest knit community I've ever seen. Ive personally had people I've never even met call me based on a reference from a friend or family member and be willing to talk to me and help me out. You will definitely find that around DCA if you express genuine interest. And don't get put off by rude or negative people, those people exist too and just focus on what you want to do. Its very possible. I know this post was excruciatingly long but you can PM me if you have more questions or like some more advice. Hope it helped and doesn't spark too many offshoot arguments/debates over anything I mentioned.

Why limit yourself to one option all the way in DAB? Perhaps you should look at closer and less busy airports such as ISM, ORL or maybe even SFB.

Here is a more realistic breakdown of the costs involved.

Average Training Costs

Private Pilot 60 hours ——– $12,450
Instrument Rating 50 hours ——– $11,450
Time Building 125 hours ——– $5,312.50
Commercial Pilot 20 hours ——– $6,900
Multi Engine Rating 15 hours ——– $6,625
Total Time 265 hours Total Cost $42,737.50


Private Pilot Course
Cessna 152 60 hours $85 / hour $5,100
Cessna 172 60 hours $115 / hour $6,900
Flight Instruction 50 hours $80 / hour $4,000
Ground Instruction 30 hours $80 / hour $2,400
Material and Exam Fees $950
TOTAL $12,450 (152) $14,250 (172)


Instrument Rating Course
Cessna 152 50 hours $85 / hour $4,250
Cessna 172 50 hours $115 / hour $5,570
Flight Instruction 50 hours $80 / hour $4,000
Ground Instruction 30 hours $80 / hour $2,400
Material and Exam Fees $800
TOTAL $11,450 (152) $12,870 (172)


Time Building
Cessna 152 125 hours $42.50 / hour $5,312.50
TOTAL $5,312.50
*Time building costs are shared with other pilots*


Commercial Pilot Course
C-172RG 20 hours $145 / hour $2,900
Flight Instruction 20 hours $80 / hour $1,600
Ground Instruction 20 hours $80 / hour $1,600
Material and Exam Fees $800
TOTAL $6,900


Multi Engine Course
Piper Seminole 15 hours $255.00 per hour $3,825
Flight Instruction 15 hours $80 / hour $1,200
Ground Instruction 10 hours $80 / hour $800
Material and Exam Fees $800
TOTAL $6,625

With any self motivation, those aren't that realistic either. Who needs 90 hours of ground school for CP-AMEL/ASEL, at $80/hr for GROUND?

I wouldn't call those realistic either, but they are unrealistically high, not low.

I agree, if you’re dedicated and self motivated why would you need so much ground school? I myself work best by sitting in a room hitting the books hard followed by some hands on teaching on the actual aircraft. This is where the value of a great instructor truly shines.

In life I’ve found that self reliance is one of the best traits found in any person. Read the books and if a section of the book confuses you, then seek out the answer. In a world of google and a ton of YouTube videos, you’re bound to find the answer and when you do, it’ll be yours forever since it wasn’t so easily handed out.

Yet I do suspect that there are some people that work best with many hours of ground training. To each their own.

I don’t mind paying $80 or $100 an hour for a great flight instructor, but when I see that many hours of ground instruction, I’m always a litttle skeptical. Especially when I don’t see it as an optional thing, I have been looking through some flight schools in my area and do notice that many of them do this. To each their own, I’m sure it works for some. Just know that all that ground instruction as shown above amounts to about 7k. Which is money that can be put towards your CFI ratings.

Furthermore, that is why places like ATP are such a joke. They charge nearly double the price quote shown above yet provide zero ground school. Which like I said is fine, but for nearly 90k...it’s not that fine.

Lastly, my comments here are guided towards a self starter who like most of us wants to finish their training at the most afordable price possible. Like I said, there are people who could greatly benefit from plenty of one on one ground instruction and there are those to whom ATP works great for. Different strokes for different folks.

These numbers are based on 10 years of full-time teaching and over 6000 dual given. I agree that they are slightly high, but the average student will typically need to be spoonfed a lot of material. Most people don't have the drive to push themselves. These numbers could be split in half if the student prepares correctly, but most don't. Also, these numbers are based on flying out of a highly populated area which increases both the need for ground and flight training...and the hold short you're number 8 for departure costs. Another thing is that the downside to having so much teaching experience is that I have a lot to teach :-). You truly get what you pay for.

Thanks for posting the cost info. I had no idea it was that cheap, I've always heard $100K to Commercial/Multi/Inst.

I started taking lessons with Florida Air Guard Aero Club in 1975. They had 1965 models Cherokee 160 and 180. They got their gas thru military channels and paid no tax on it and the F-106 mechanics who were A&P's did the work for reduced flying rates. With all that I paid a whole $8/hour WET for the 160, $9 for the 180. My CFI was an F-106 Sim Tech Master Sargent. He charged all of $5 per hour. Normal rental rates for a Skyhawk were probably around $35/hr in 1975. When I got my PPL in 1976 my Dad was like "It cost you the same amount to get your PPL in 1976 as it cost me back in 1948!!" :)

Later I did some flying out of the FBO at TLH, me and a Navy ROTC guy re-started the FSU Flying Club and Seminole Flying Team. An IFR Skyhawk was $39/hour in the late 70's. After graduation I went to USAF Pilot Training so lost track of what civilian time cost. Didn't do any more civilian time except for my ATP ride in 1988.

I've paid 2.5 hours of ground from 0 to CP. That was my oral prep for my checkrides and oral part of my complex endorsement. So I'd say these numbers could be slashed to 10th _if_ the student prepares correctly. I can only imagine how many don't. It's a lot of work.

In my experience, CFIs with ONLY CFI experience, no matter how much of it, don't have much to teach. Real experience comes from flying in the system, for real. (this wasn't aimed at you, just a general observation).

By ground, do you mean ground school? Or briefs and debriefs associated with flights? I hope your CFI charged for that...

I agree, that’s the problem with most flight instructors, they don’t have much real world experience, and unfortunately their students need to find out how things really work by trial and error. Not the best approach when it comes to flying airplanes. I make a good effort to impart all the knowledge needed to reduce the amount of risk a new pilot will encounter. I don’t think spending an extra 5-10k on ground when it’s going to potential save your life/ticket is too much to ask for. To the OP, find a well qualified CFI and get all you can out of your training. Ask tons of questions, especially the most important one, “why?”

^^ This

Not sure how realistic it is for the OP, but for anyone in a tough spot like this, consider signing up for four years in a career field that doesn't deploy as frequently as others so you can use Tuition Assistance to knock out general B.S. education courses while serving (toward a Restricted ATP approved degree). Then upon separating at four years use the GI Bill to fast-track the remaining flight courses and degree requirements for the 1,000 hour R-ATP.

Four years sounds like a lot, but you'll shave off almost a year of flight instructing simply by getting the R-ATP and you won't have all those loans to pay back.