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Old 06-22-2018, 11:15 AM   #1  
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Default Back to the basics instrument training

Hey all. Trying to do a students instrument training in an older aircraft. It has a GPS but it isn't current and it is not feasible for him to update it, so GPS approaches aren't available. It does not have DME equipment either. The airplane has dual nav, so we can use triangulation to determine intersections on approaches, em route, etc.

My questions begin here. For his checkride, when he does partial panel, I am almost positive the examiner will cover up one of the obs instruments. At this point what would he have to do to continue? I am stuck between switching nav frequencies and courses over and over (which I would consider as a dangerous practice) or the other, much more conservative option of advising atc and either asking for them to advise of crossing the intersection, fix, etc. Even with these, the only approaches he will be able to do are ILS, LOC, and VOR (which the checkride airport conveniently has all 3). He will also be able to do holds at intersections but obviously not DME holds. He will not be able to do DME arcs either.

If anyone has any experience with this situation, knowledge to input, etx. please let me know. Thanks in advance!
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Old 06-23-2018, 04:47 AM   #2  
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The instrument ACS was recently updated to only require DME arcs if they are published on an approach, no more making one up for a checkride. Partial panel should be a failure of the aircraft's attitude and heading reference system, not navigation. Ensure that the GPS is properly marked for VFR use only.
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Old 06-23-2018, 05:14 AM   #3  
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^^^This^^^
Please review 91.213 and ensure proper placarding and deferral of inop equipment (GPS database) that is not required equipment. Remember ATOMATOFLAMES? Also, the ACS requires the applicant to provide an Airworthy aircraft that is capable of all required maneuvers and tasks.
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Old 06-23-2018, 07:59 AM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingnerd View Post
Hey all. Trying to do a students instrument training in an older aircraft. It has a GPS but it isn't current and it is not feasible for him to update it, so GPS approaches aren't available. It does not have DME equipment either. The airplane has dual nav, so we can use triangulation to determine intersections on approaches, em route, etc.

My questions begin here. For his checkride, when he does partial panel, I am almost positive the examiner will cover up one of the obs instruments. At this point what would he have to do to continue? I am stuck between switching nav frequencies and courses over and over (which I would consider as a dangerous practice) or the other, much more conservative option of advising atc and either asking for them to advise of crossing the intersection, fix, etc. Even with these, the only approaches he will be able to do are ILS, LOC, and VOR (which the checkride airport conveniently has all 3). He will also be able to do holds at intersections but obviously not DME holds. He will not be able to do DME arcs either.

If anyone has any experience with this situation, knowledge to input, etx. please let me know. Thanks in advance!
You can fly just fine with 1 CDI, use the other for intersections. Use lead radials, etc.

As far as if it fails, you could have a GPS for awareness and in an emergency situation, like going partial panel, it might be helpful as a pseudo-DME reference, might be good to verify the GPS coords for various fixes around the area, like the VOR. Remember, if you have a nav failure, you are supposed to notify ATC. One reason would be so they can provide radar fixes. With just one CDI, no GPS or DME, I'd be declaring an emergency or landing in VFR.

Why would the examiner cover up a CDI? Unless your primary CDI is an HSI? Otherwise, they shouldn't be covering up CDIs (nav instruments). I would turn off someone's moving-map if I felt they were over-relying on it and didn't understand the fundamentals of timed/compass turns and timing, assuming navigation would still be possible with CDIs on that system. I've asked applicants how they will accomplish a 90 degree turn that is coming up and more than once I've not been able to get an answer. Turn off the map and all hell breaks loose.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:00 AM   #5  
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Unless one of his CDI's is an HSI and you're anticipating a gyro failure, there's no reason to fail the nav indicators. Many of us managed to fly on a solitary nav indicator (or no nav indicator) for some time, before GPS and often in absence of DME.

Your student might consider renting another aircraft with more capability, if it's desired. At a minimum he will need adequate to present for the practical, however, so keep that in mind.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:41 AM   #6  
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Originally Posted by Terrain Inop View Post
The instrument ACS was recently updated to only require DME arcs if they are published on an approach, no more making one up for a checkride. Partial panel should be a failure of the aircraft's attitude and heading reference system, not navigation. Ensure that the GPS is properly marked for VFR use only.
That would've been nice when I did mine. The GPS clearly states vfr only when it boosts up as well.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:43 AM   #7  
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Thanks for the tips everyone. Seems like o was just digging to deep and worrying about things that more than likely wont come up.
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